The great Bonham debate.

[LUDLOVER]

Many people think this solo Bonham does at the end of Dazed and Confused from The Song Remains the Same is sped up.

Lets hear some opinions.

There may be someone on this forum that has seen Bonham live, maybe even this performance in particular.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_oxPrz2nH8

[mcjnic]

Why would it be under debate? He's really not doing anything extraordinarily fast or difficult. It's just a boom slap boom whack kind of thing to end the song. There's really nothing notable here. He's done much more intense things than this.

...sorry if I've derailed this. It really didn't impress me. Don't get me wrong. I respect the guy. Buddy did some average things, too. So did Gene. I'm saying that of all the things that could be debated, this one really shouldn't be.

[LUDLOVER]

Why would it be under debate? He's really not doing anything extraordinarily fast or difficult. It's just a boom slap boom whack kind of thing to end the song. There's really nothing notable here. He's done much more intense things than this.

...sorry if I've derailed this. It really didn't impress me. Don't get me wrong. I respect the guy. Buddy did some average things, too. So did Gene. I'm saying that of all the things that could be debated, this one really shouldn't be.

I have no idea why people debate this. I've been watching TSRTS for years and never thaught twice about it. On YouTube where I got the clip there is a major debate going on. I do not think people doubt his ability to play fast but question whether or not it was sped up.

It may not seem extraordinary to some but I must humbly admit that I can not play that fast yet. I am working on it but not quite there yet.

[Super B]

The clip looks sped up, because, it's on film, not video. Bonham, Buddy Rich, and anyone with serious chops are faster than what can be recorded with film cameras..at that time. Add this with what mcjnic said.

[LUDLOVER]

The clip looks sped up, because, it's on film, not video. Bonham, Buddy Rich, and anyone with serious chops are faster than what can be recorded with film cameras..at that time. Add this with what mcjnic said.

That makes sense.

[bigshawn]

Super B is on the right track. With motion picture film cameras, the speed of film, the angle of the rotary shutter, the rate that the film is moving past the shutter, and phase/timing of the film moving past the shutter can affect the look of the motion image. In this case, it was probably shot on 16mm film in low lighting with a fixed shutter, so it doesn't suprise me that it has a choppy or sped up look to it. If a camera's sync motor isn't functioning properly, the rate at which the film is movng past the shutter can vary - giving it a sped up/slowed down look. You'll notice that around 0:06, the sync of the image and sound are slightly off - evidence that this might be happening.

But let's face it - there are a lot of people out there that can play fast as lightining. So it's not like were witnessing something that is impossible to play. Just don't ask me to play it....I'll have to speed the camera up for that!

Great video.

[kevins]

There may be someone on this forum that has seen Bonham live, maybe even this performance in particular.


I was backstage that night...
Stole his girlfriend.....:D:D

[Ludwig-dude]

He's really not doing anything extraordinarily fast or difficult. It's just a boom slap boom whack kind of thing to end the song. There's really nothing notable here. He's done much more intense things than this.

It really didn't impress me. Don't get me wrong. I respect the guy. Buddy did some average things, too. So did Gene.

On a related note, I have a cd someone burned for me with the drumtracks only from the In Through the Out Door sessions....I think I've stumbled across them on the net too.....and after being a "Bonham is God" guy for years, hearing these tracks made me think: he's really not doing anything that extraordinary. After seeing the Led Zeppelin DVD (which I own) I started thinking the same thing. Don't get me wrong either, I still love the man's playing to this day, but after actually watching and hearing the drums only, I guess I'm not as impressed as I used to be. I was able to get the "Good times bad times" bass drum triplet down years ago. Whats the trick? A Speed King pedal. Really not that hard or impressive when you do it....I never seem to get the "what was that?" or "how did you do that?" like I'm sure Bonham did at first. The older I get the harder I am to impress I guess. What impresses me more is Ringo's playing with the Beatles....some of that later stuff from the Revolver album and Strawberry Fields Forever (ya I know there are two different tracks layered over each other) is just amazingly impossible to replicate on stage correctly! And don't get me started on the cool bop era jazz greats! Cool DudeBurger Kin

[Ludwig-dude]

I was backstage that night...
Stole his girlfriend.....:D:D

I wonder if his wife knew about this said girlfriend? LoLoLoLoLoLoLoLo

[mcjnic]

And don't get me started on the cool bop era jazz greats! Cool DudeBurger Kin

This is one of my all-time faves. Sometimes it's hard to breath when I focus on it. Unreal depth of groove there. That, to me, defines what jazz drumming can be. We all have goals. One of mine is to get a smile from the man behind that kit on something deep that I've slipped past him on my own kit. I understand the logistics involved in why it won't happen, but man oh man...wouldn't that be sweet.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_v7mUGoKDc

[Ludwig-dude]

This is one of my all-time faves. Sometimes it's hard to breath when I focus on it. Unreal depth of groove there. That, to me, defines what jazz drumming can be. We all have goals. One of mine is to get a smile from the man behind that kit on something deep that I've slipped past him on my own kit. I understand the logistics involved in why it won't happen, but man oh man...wouldn't that be sweet.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_v7mUGoKDc

SWEEEET!

I got one for you Michael:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_n-gRS_wdI

[kevins]

I wonder if his wife knew about this said girlfriend? LoLoLoLoLoLoLoLo

Oops.....!!

[brody]

On a related note, I have a cd someone burned for me with the drumtracks only from the In Through the Out Door sessions....I think I've stumbled across them on the net too.....and after being a "Bonham is God" guy for years, hearing these tracks made me think: he's really not doing anything that extraordinary. After seeing the Led Zeppelin DVD (which I own) I started thinking the same thing. Don't get me wrong either, I still love the man's playing to this day, but after actually watching and hearing the drums only, I guess I'm not as impressed as I used to be. I was able to get the "Good times bad times" bass drum triplet down years ago. Whats the trick? A Speed King pedal. Really not that hard or impressive when you do it....I never seem to get the "what was that?" or "how did you do that?" like I'm sure Bonham did at first. The older I get the harder I am to impress I guess. What impresses me more is Ringo's playing with the Beatles....some of that later stuff from the Revolver album and Strawberry Fields Forever (ya I know there are two different tracks layered over each other) is just amazingly impossible to replicate on stage correctly! And don't get me started on the cool bop era jazz greats! Cool DudeBurger Kin

Yeah, I love Bonham too, but I can work out what he's doing. The thing is, it's the imagination, how he put it together and the feel. There's been many a more technically proficient drummer over the years, but it's just his incredible feel that gives him that status. He's also managed to influence a massive cross-section of drummers too. My personal fave Bonham performance is Achilles Last Stand - he's way faster on that than this clip in question!

[LUDLOVER]

Yeah, I love Bonham too, but I can work out what he's doing. The thing is, it's the imagination, how he put it together and the feel. There's been many a more technically proficient drummer over the years, but it's just his incredible feel that gives him that status. He's also managed to influence a massive cross-section of drummers too. My personal fave Bonham performance is Achilles Last Stand - he's way faster on that than this clip in question!

And lets not forget that he probably idolized Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa and other great drummers but died at the age of 32. I can only imagine how good he would have been if he was still alive especially with the head start he already had.

[MastroSnare]

As far as speed, Van sure has the triplet thing wired:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-p1gHyqhnw
There's a point near the end where it's quite nuts, and his lessons are great although I'm not big on doing stuff where you speed up like that... I'd rather see it more about time than fills.
When I was a kid I played with a bassist named Jeff Castleman, who had worked with Duke Ellington for years. He told me that if I just thought about my time that the fills would come out automatically, and I always thought that it was great advice.

[who_keith_moon]

Hmmm. well looks like your all debating the debate, thats how urban legends become urban legends, just call it what it was , a typical drum solo, nothing great. just a drum solo.

[Mike T]

On a related note, I have a cd someone burned for me with the drumtracks only from the In Through the Out Door sessions....I think I've stumbled across them on the net too.....and after being a "Bonham is God" guy for years, hearing these tracks made me think: he's really not doing anything that extraordinary. After seeing the Led Zeppelin DVD (which I own) I started thinking the same thing. Don't get me wrong either, I still love the man's playing to this day, but after actually watching and hearing the drums only, I guess I'm not as impressed as I used to be. I was able to get the "Good times bad times" bass drum triplet down years ago. Whats the trick? A Speed King pedal. Really not that hard or impressive when you do it....I never seem to get the "what was that?" or "how did you do that?" like I'm sure Bonham did at first. The older I get the harder I am to impress I guess. What impresses me more is Ringo's playing with the Beatles....some of that later stuff from the Revolver album and Strawberry Fields Forever (ya I know there are two different tracks layered over each other) is just amazingly impossible to replicate on stage correctly! And don't get me started on the cool bop era jazz greats! Cool DudeBurger Kin

A couple of points here In through the out door he was well on his way to ruin, he had gained alot of weight and was drinking in binges, he had dropped the 14x10 and went to a 15x12 because he simply could not get around the kit as fast as 9 years before. Yes alot of his stuff was simple BUT who had done it before him in rock? only one person and to alot less degree Carrmine Appice.. JHB, was very imaginative in he playing yet he played just time alot his fills were new to R&R, easy to do ?maybe but put yourself in his place,constant touring the presure of the biggest band in the world (at the time) and his hate for flying..and i think he did a great job if only his way of dealing with it had been different maybe we might have seen what he would have become.. Many can copy his licks in their garage or studio i want to see them do it on stage with 30,000 screaming fans 140 nights out of 200...

[Ludwig-dude]

Hmmm. well looks like your all debating the debate, thats how urban legends become urban legends, just call it what it was , a typical drum solo, nothing great. just a drum solo.

Clapping Happy2Clapping Happy2Clapping Happy2

[nemo007]

It's not sped up, and also incredibly easy to do.
What Bonham does, at least IMO, is a triplet pattern.
Hand-Kick-Hand kind of thing. It's a little linear groove
that works really well to mesh into a massive explosion
of awesomeness. That's my two cents on it.

:)

[AZBill]

This is one of my all-time faves. Sometimes it's hard to breath when I focus on it. Unreal depth of groove there. That, to me, defines what jazz drumming can be. We all have goals. One of mine is to get a smile from the man behind that kit on something deep that I've slipped past him on my own kit. I understand the logistics involved in why it won't happen, but man oh man...wouldn't that be sweet.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_v7mUGoKDc

Wow!! Was that Happy Kyne and The Mirth-Makers? Awesome!!Excited

[AZBill]

SWEEEET!

I got one for you Michael:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_n-gRS_wdI

One of my all-time fave's! "Heavy Weight Champ" box set is a must have. 7 discs of "The Trane" with Elvin. Awesome!! :cool: