Help with cymbal

[ragingscythe]

Hello all! New to the forum, I see now that there is no Introductions forum (despite the little auto message :D). Anyway, I guess I can give a bit of an intro here... been playing drums for a short while and picked them up after getting a chance to be the drum set player for winter percussion. I play sax otherwise. When I didn't make the local county honor band tryouts for sax I got to take an empty percussionist slot (my band director was helping out with percussion)... even though I had played drum set for under two months and had no experience with concert percussion. :p It turned out alright in the end.

Anyway I got my set from an architect/businessman guy who got it from some old pro drummer, guess he had it lying around. It's an old 76' Classic Maple with the clear maple interior (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/ragingscythe/drumcymbalstuff001.jpg) (I like the kit (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/ragingscythe/drumcymbalstuff002.jpg) and I got it at a good price considering all that was included, I guess they are fairly rare)... and with the kit he got an old cracked 15" Zildjian A crash that I figured out to be from the 60's and a 21" K ride in really good condition (some patina+thick dirt buildup but no cracks, just a really tiny keyhole crack from improper mounting i'm assuming as I had to file my cymbal sleeve to mount this one), an old one converted to a sizzler with 8 holes and really clangy tack-like rivets... complete with a signature on the bottom.

In any case after some research I am pretty sure the ride is an old 21" K crash/ride, as I saw a 60's stamp that looked like the one it has. Otherwise it has really long overtones and crashes quite easily. It even sounds quite a bit like the newer crash/ride sound bytes on the Zildjian site. Fairly thin too.

Any help in identifying would be great (signature too, perhaps)! Any idea as to around how much it is worth (not sure if I'd sell it but I am kinda curious as to its value)? Thanks for the help!

Cymbal stamp (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/ragingscythe/drumcymbalstuff003.jpg)
cymbal stamp again (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/ragingscythe/drumcymbalstuff004.jpg)
signature! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/ragingscythe/drumcymbalstuff007.jpg)

For anyone who is curious on drum sizes/details:
Snare- 5x14 Ludwig Bronze Snare, basic/non-Supra model with the black and white badge.
Mounted toms- 9.5" x 13" and 10.5" x 14"
Floor tom- 16" x 18"
Bass- 16" x 24"

[O-Lugs]

Nice kit! It's maple cortex (a wrap). Looks like you have a 13"/14"/16" and a 22"(?) bass drum.

I'm not a cymbal expert, but someone will be around to help you with yoru inquiry.

[GiantBeater]

do you want to sell that K? thanks

[ragingscythe]

xD Thanks, edited the post to include the sizes. Someone else on a diff forum noted it was maple cortex wrap also, I guess since the wrap is lighter than the interior?

[jcymbal]

That's an old K zildjian istanbul. That's an Intermediate stamp (~early 60's).

what's the weight? can you post a profile picture?

[Jaye]

IT IS A GREAT, RARE CYMBAL.

That K, even with the crack at the hole and the rivets....is worth about $1500 if there's no other damage to it. Post a closeup of the rivets..they MAY be factory and not post-factory.

8 rivets on a K is just too many. If you wanna keep the cymbal and use it can carefully remove a few of them....I would say at least 4 of them....all of the sudden you will hear the beautiful qualities of the cymbal coming back.

Start by using masking tape on the top of the rivets, to keep them from moving...then listen to the cymbal. It's wonderful midranges and lows will start coming out with each rivet you dampen.

if you don't wanna keep it, then just leave all the rivets in and sell it. But...if you git the entire rig for a really good deal...you have just experienced something which cymbal afficionados DREAM about.....you inadvertently stumbled onto an old K !

If you are interested, there are a number of safe methods to remove some of that crud and patina if you want to. It's a judgment call...some folks do, some don't. But you gotta be careful what you use to do it.

That crack looks small...is it ? 1/8", 1/4" ? Keep an eye on it. get a magnifying glass, and mark it on the top and bottom w/ a sharpie marker...just a dot where it ends. Then look at it once in a while and see if the crack has migrated beyond the sharpie dot. This is a K...you almost gotta do this, IMHO.

Can you post a full-on of the whole cymbal ?

[ragingscythe]

Alright, can't get pics now but will when I get the chance. I'm almost positive the rivets and even sizziling holes are non-factory, as the quality of the rivets is not the greatest and the rivet holes are not evenly spaced. I'll put up more pics later today.

I have 4 of the rivets and another 4 around somewhere... wayyyy too clangy with all 8 and even with 4 still really aggressive metal on metal clang rather than nice warm shimmering (so right now it has no rivets). Not sure if I would risk taking out the patina and build-up, it's mostly on the underside anyway.

But yeah it was kind of random stumbling upon it.
The whole kit, without the A Custom in the pic but with DW 9500 hi hat stand, new throne, direct drive Intruder pedal, the 2 aforementioned cymbals, K Custom dark hats, 10" A custom splash and the new snare it was all was $475 haha.

[Ninefingers]

wow.....Car Driving2

you have inadvertently committed highway robbery

[ragingscythe]

Okay, got some pics. I have no way of currently accurately figuring out the weight in grams(how is that usually determined?) but I did a rough lil check on a scale and it came out to what equates to around 2000 grams... really light but not much of a surprise I guess.

The little crack is pretty much only 1/16th of an inch long.

Rivets (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/ragingscythe/kcymbalstuff001.jpg)
Cymbal underside (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/ragingscythe/kcymbalstuff002.jpg)
Overhead view (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/ragingscythe/kcymbalstuff003.jpg)
Close up, shows some of the uneven holes + a black mark (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/ragingscythe/kcymbalstuff004.jpg)

Thanks for all the help!

[Jaye]

OK...the rivet/hole thang isn't as bad as your previous post implied. It appears they were at least drilled in an "in-out-in-out" sorta pattern (i.e. rivet close to edge, rivet further back from edge, rivet close to edge, etc). So although the spacing isn't exactly equal all the way around, there is at least some symmetry and method.. to the madness...so visually, it's not all that apparent. I have seen much, much worse rivet jobs.

Those are pretty old-skool rivets there, the big heavy ones...I agree it wasn't factory...or perhaps the first 4 were and the second 4 were afterwards. But it was done a long time ago...

Regardless, rivet holes or not, that puppy is worth a goldmine and it's a real, real special cymbal. I bet is sounds sweet without the rivets.

That 1/16" crack...I agree, not a concern. IMHO, for 1/16", if it were mine I would take my dremel to that crack and make it disappear...leaving in its place a small, artificially-created keyhole. I would do this so I could sleep soundly and nevrer have to check up on that crack again. Keyholes and rivet holes often decrease the value of other cymbals...but nothing short of significant cracks and dents ever reduces the value of an old K. But I do realize that is a bit of an aggressive approach; and one which a lot of others would forego....

I would keep 'er....

unless, really, you are a purely rock player and have no use for a cymbal of it's dark/trashy/stick-y quality...in which case you would get $1.5G for it if you wanted to (eBay, probably...or here).

[ragingscythe]

Hmm, I was wondering about how much keyholing/minor damage would take value away as a 19" vintage K with pretty big keyholing and a bunch of edge nicks I saw went for $2k.

As for the riveting, never really noticed the in/out pattern... but I do know circumference-wise the spacing is kinda haphazard like you said. Anyway, the other 4 rivets were just like the ones I showed.

Not sure what I'll do for now... really like the cymbal a lot (even when I didn't know much about it I still liked it) but I could really use the money and still have some drum stuff to buy (isn't there always). Is that 1.5k a real definite thing or is there a chance it might not go for so much? I'm still quite the beginner so I'm not so definite on styles I play although I guess for now and in winter percussion pretty much rock playing, but I do love jazz. It's my absolute favorite for saxophone, I'm just not so well-versed in the drumming aspect of it. Another thing I wonder is that probably someone out there who is an avid collector and a really experienced player could probably appreciate the cymbal more, although I dunno.

[Jaye]

It's a tough call.

But I would say: YES, on eBay you would get $1500 for it because it's a 21"...which is pretty unusual....regardless of the rivet holes and minor mounthole crack.

IF...jazz playing is in your future....then KEEP the cymbal. K's take some woodshedding to get 'em to play the way you want 'em to. Turkish hand-hammered cymbals are not the most user-friendly...you gotta learn 'em.
Also...to a younger ear they may sound a bit wild and uncontrolled....but, trust me, the more you expose yourself to handmade cymbals...the more your ear will acquire a taste for the beauty of the sound.

Buy a crapload of different kinds of sticks. Firth SD10's, and SD4 combos, some round-tipped Boleros or Vater Fusions, some Regal Jazz wood-tipped, etc, etc, etc. They will ALL make the cymbal sound different.

I dunno how old you are...but I can tell you, from a guy at the half-century mark....I don't wanna even THINK about all of the good, old instruments I sold at the time just to liquidate 'em into cash which proved to be...ephemeral at best.

It really IS a rare cymbal...so unless you are seriously hard up for $$$$, hold onto it, gather more opinions, and think about it over the long-term.The Band

[ragingscythe]

Oh man, you guys will get a kick out of this. I was a typical uncareful 17-year-old and assumed the old owner's measurement was correct. It's a 22"! Actually, more like the cymbals described here (http://www.classicvintagedrums.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_78&products_id=385), where it is 21.75". I feel like an idiot now xP. By the way, did that mean that person spend too much?

Anyway, I see what you mean by not just jumping on the cash. Basically, I was/am cutting into leisure savings (for non-essentials in college like maybe a trip overseas or fancy computer gear or whatever) with buying drum gear, and was tantalized by the thought of suddenly having more money as I need to buy a new secondary crash and a more versatile ride (probably a K Custom Hybrid), as well as stuff like another stand, an arm clamp, etc. I like the idea of just holding onto the cymbal unless I get really short on cash... be something like in Arrested Development (There's always money in the old K! ;) ).

By all means I do need some new sticks, all I have are a bunch of nylon tipped 5A and B's that came with the set and one pair of "Back Bay" hickory wood-tips. None really made for articulate cymbal sounds, mostly just middle of the road feel/response. The local music store has limited selection but I'll look into things more.

Where would one normally go to find a cymbal evaluation in person? Tried to look into stuff but only found an expensive online apprasial service that only looks at pictures you send them.

Thanks soooooo much for all the help by the way! I really try to research things on my own, but some stuff you really have to ask for help with I guess. : p

[Jaye]

Member Drumaholic is a flat-out expert when it comes to vintage cymbal-dom. I dunno if he gives "legit" appraisals...but I would say I doubt there is anyone on earth who knows more about vintage K's and A's than he.

You should PM him or e-mail him.

Member jcymbal also is very knowledgeable...but again I dunno if he gives appraisals. Do you have a vintage or used music store near you with a knowledgeable drum dept ?

Yes...there's money in the Banana Stand.Excited

22" ? Yes, so easily $1500.

I know it's tempting to just cash it in....

Finally...5A's and similarly profiled sticks are probably GUARANTEED to get the LEAST out of any vintage cymbal.Toilet

Pony up a few bucks and start experimenting with better stix....

[Jaye]

Of, course...I mean...the idea of taking the $1.5 and going on an excellent summer trip abroad to some cool place in the world...mmmm...that's a pretty good argument for liquidating .

But I wouldn't liquidate it to buy contemporary cymbals or gear. THAT would be a mistake, IMHO.

[jcymbal]

Could you post a profile picture? Did you mention the weight? I'll look again!

[ragingscythe]

Okay, so here are the pics:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/ragingscythe/kcymbalside002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/ragingscythe/kcymbalside001.jpg

Using a rough check on a lbs scale it weighs about 2000 grams, so extra thin.

Thanks! xD

[jcymbal]

thanks for those shots!
that 2000g weight must be off though... could you post the figure in pounds? Thanks in advance.

[ragingscythe]

It comes out to about 4.4-4.5 lbs on the scale, could it be that the scale is off?

[jcymbal]

if this is a 22" (or 21"something) that scale is probably off... or maybe it's a 20"?

[ragingscythe]

Hmm, well for sure the diameter measurement is okay as I double checked a bunch of times after the inital wrong measurement. The scale is not the fanciest thing as sometimes you can turn the knob to zero it and it will really still be zeroed at -1 lbs or whatever, but no matter what the zeroing was it did move up 4.5 lbs from what the stuff the cymbal was balancing on weighed (tried multiple times). I just tested it with some barbell weights and it was reading those alright too.

I got the extra light/thin designation from this thread (http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4968).

Hmm, if I get the chance I guess I can easily try to borrow someone else's scale or something just to be 100% sure. Is it just that even a super thin 22 should still weigh more than that?

[Jaye]

That'd make it hecka rare ...a 22" K at only 2000-2100g...dang.

I have one a bit under 2450 and it absolutely sings....plays like butter, too.

I'd LOVE to hear yours....

[ragingscythe]

That would be about one pound more, right? Probably very possible then that the scale is messing up and showing a pound off. I'll work on getting a more reliable way to measure.

[jcymbal]

the lightest 22" that I ever saw was just above 2100g. If your cymbal is 5,5lbs (instead of 4,5lbs) that would make it 2500g. Take it to a post office and use one of their scales. usually they're around 2300g and above.

regarding the measurement. I've seen people measure a cymbal over the top (over the bell) using some kind of flexible tape. The usual practice is to turn the cymbal up side down and then take a measure across using a "stiff" scale!

[ragingscythe]

Anyway to give a bit of an update, I did pick up some SD4 Combos and it's definitely much better to play on now!

Randomly got a convenient chance to go to the post office, and it came out to around 4lbs 8.75 oz or 2060 grams. I think it could be that the rivet holes take out a bunch of weight, not sure. Anyway, that's what the post office scale said.

For measuring the diameter, I put the cymbal upside down and measured with measuring tape pulled as taut as possible. Checked a bunch of times again after I got that it was 22 and not 21 xP.

[Jaye]

We believe you ;)...that just happens to be the lightest 22" K I have ever heard of...which adds to its value, actually.

yes, smaller-tipped sticks like the SD4's often bring out the best in those oldies....

[Drumaholic]

You should definitely keep it. You'll appreciate playing the cymbal and later you may seriously regret letting it go. It's the best investment that you can make next to buying gold. You'll also see it steadily climb in value as time goes on.

And some day these things are going to be worth many times what they are now.