How do these Ludwigs look?

[Coquelicot]

I've been looking for a long time for a vintage ludwig kit and this one caught my eye:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/dantheman2590/blackpantherludwigs.jpg

it's got a 12x8, 13x9, 16x16, and 14x20 virgin bass. The wrap is original. It's 1100 obo.

I had to ask about this kit on here because of the strange configuration.... Whats up with that? Is it worth getting? Just tell me about this, please.

Thanks,
Mister T

[Webmaster]

Let me ask you a few questions.

It looks like the two sets you have wanted are both 70's/80's Ludwigs.

What is your musical playing style and do you have a preference for these types os color sets??

Here is a set I just noticed on Ebay and looks like a nice complete 60's set with hardware and a very practical snare drum.

Click Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/1960s-Ludwig-Super-Classic-Drum-Set-W-Hardware_W0QQitemZ7396565891QQcategoryZ64440QQrdZ1 QQcmdZViewItem)

Another here (http://cgi.ebay.com/60s-Ludwig-Classic-Blue-Parkle-W-Matching-Snare-Clean_W0QQitemZ7395924577QQcategoryZ64440QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem)

This to me would be more of the Classic Ludwig Vintage. I do not know the seller, but it never hurts to ask questions.

Please tell me your preferences on sizes and finish so when I'm looking I can help find something

David

[O-Lugs]

Yeah, man! That blue sparklekit David posted the link to is a MUCH better deal.

The black drums appear to be a finish called "Black Panther". It's an "okay" kit...nowhere near worth 1100. 500-600 tops.

[Coquelicot]

okay, I'll forget the black kit.

The first kit I wanted because I was told it was "early 70's". I would like 60's more than anything, but I don't mind early 70's. I play rock, but nothing hard. Right now I'm listening to Built To Spill:)

I'm looking for a 14x22, 13x9, 16x16, 14x5 or 6. It doesn't have to come with a snare, though. The reason I overlooked those two blue sparkle kits is because I read that blue sparkle is a very collectable finish and those kits go up pretty high.

The second of the two you sent me is looking VERY nice right now. It looks kind of dirty, but able to be shined up (I may be superstitious, but I think people bid higher on vintage drums with shiny lugs, so that's a plus). I like the matching snare. and Alhambra is 63.5 miles away from me according to mapquest. That knocks off 100 for shipping. Hmmmm.... Do you think 1100 would do it for the second one? I'm sure I could bid 1000-1100 on it.

I'm thinking when I get new hardware and cymbals, I'll get off easy and get everything vintage. hardware, cymbals, stands. a lot of bands I listen to play vintage ludwigs (90%, honestly...) and a good portion of those play vintage Zildjian A's. Would it be ridiculous for me to use a vintage bass pedal, hi-hat stand, other stands, and cymbals? I'm not a hard hitter, strength is hardly an issue.

[Webmaster]

You should not bid until the end of the auction and wait till the last possible moment to put your highest bid in.


There is always that chance and it is very likely, but sometimes with a higher starting bid people do not want to hop on board the auction.

Just test the waters and keep looking.

I had to go online to learn more about Built to Spill, I like the sound.

Yep, put in the high (at the end of the auction) and see what happens you might get them for much less. Please email them questions and start communication with them. Also ask about the pick up and it never hurts to ask what they want in cash to end the auction early.

In regards to the cymbals, save that money because the price of A's is slowly going up. This would be the time to start looking. Of course the older the A the higher you will pay (hey that rythmes). You can find some good deals on cymbals on Ebay.

David

[O-Lugs]

Good advice, David. The FIRST of the 2 blue sparkle kit links is the nicest deal -even if it sells for over $1000, it is a really good deal. I think it WILL sell for more than $1000, by the way! The second set may end up being the better deal for you. Either way, both kits are superior to that black panther kit.

Good luck and let us know when you score your kit!

[wvhill]

David, you are great! That second little set would be fantastic for what he's been seeking. I would definitely go for that if I were in his situation. WAY TO GO!

[Coquelicot]

Thanks for the advice. My dad is a master ebayer, if it doesn't go higher than whatever our maximum, I'm sure we'll get it. I'm still watching every kit that goes in and out of ebay, though.

To the person who said the first kit is better, why do you say so? I like the second because I think I like the wood snare more and since it's less shiny it'll go for less and it says 100% original (but whats with the clear reso?). And I can shine it up, no matter how tedious. And what is with the snare on the first one? Those are some weird lugs....

Another thing, what's the difference between the "Classic" and the "Super Classic"?

[O-Lugs]

Thanks for the advice. My dad is a master ebayer, if it doesn't go higher than whatever our maximum, I'm sure we'll get it. I'm still watching every kit that goes in and out of ebay, though.

To the person who said the first kit is better, why do you say so? I like the second because I think I like the wood snare more and since it's less shiny it'll go for less and it says 100% original (but whats with the clear reso?). And I can shine it up, no matter how tedious. And what is with the snare on the first one? Those are some weird lugs....

Another thing, what's the difference between the "Classic" and the "Super Classic"?

Yeah, on second thought, you're right. The second one is a better deal. At first, I thought the first kit came with original stands and that the wrap was in perfect shape...but it's not. The second one is a better deal. Good luck.

P.S. The shiny metal snare drum is a Supra and the lugs are called "Imperial" lugs. The drum is Ludwig's hallmark metal snare drum. But the wood drum on the second kit will also sound great. VINTAGE Ludwig snare drums rule!

[Rich K.]

Actually that black set is quite nice. I'm pretty sure the finish is black panther,which a textured vinyl. Although boring to me, it's a somewhat rare finish. It's possible the shells are the 3 ply ones with maple interiors which everyone that likes Ludwig wants. The set was probably a double bass set originally. Although not a steal, if it's real clean, it's not a bad deal. As a side note, there have been cases where Ludwig used black panther to cover up "citrus mod" sets, as that was a very unpopular color...so if you can see the black set in person, find a spot where you can gently lift up the wrap...if there's a weird yellow/ green wrap underneath...grab the set.

[Coquelicot]

Well, the black panther set is an ebay listing and I cannot see it in person. I've heard of citrus mod though, it's a cool wrap. All those crazy looking wraps are awesome. mod orange, psychedelic red...

What would the shells be on the Classic that I'm looking at? and what's the difference between a jazz festival snare and the one with the kit I'm looking at?

Also, why are the hoops blue...? It says 100% original, but I am unnaware of any blue hoops from the factory- haha. I'm also wondering about the clear reso. and in the last picture, what's with the bass drum lugs?

Thanks for all the help.

[O-Lugs]

Okay....I apologize. I finally looked (at length) at the Ebay auction for the second blue sparkle kit.

DON'T BUY THAT KIT!!!


Read the feedback comments from the last few months. I know who this person is....on Ebay, anyway. I sold some lugs to him/her.

The two bass drum tension rods are also not original. Regarding the blue painted hoops. Normally, I would suggest that they might, in fact, be original...However, realizing who the seller is makes me think they might say anything.

I would highly suggest to steer away from this deal!

BTW...The Jazz Festival is a wood drum with 8 lugs. I forget what the 6-lug drum was called. Both are great sounding models -usually. The Jazz Fest is more valuable to collectors. The 6-lug drums were often used as "student" snare drums (The ones that came in the old suitcases with a snare stand, etc.)

[Coquelicot]

hmmm.... I looked at all that person's recent feedback, and I think you're definately right that they'd say anything. I don't consider the tension rods a big deal because they're easily replaceable. Seeing as how this person would, indeed, say anything they want, I can see how you doubt that the hoops are original. The replies left on bad feedbacks are RIDICULOUS.

"Reply by oldieswoman-guitar60: true watch'smissing part,after full refund, u still sayt i'm dishonest? SUCKER"

................

I might pass this one up. I'm not sure, though. The fact that I could get the drums in person is a plus. On the other hand, I'd rather give my money to an honest person, and not have to look for new tension rods and stuff.

I'm now looking at the first one. It looks pretty good, and the more I look at supraphonics- the more I like them. The snare rash and the seam on the floor tom aren't too bad. Considering I'm only 16 and I'm lucky to be getting vintage Ludwigs in the first place, I think I can deal with that ; )

Is it true that blue sparkle is one of the most collectable of the common wraps and that blue sparkle wrapped kits go for a couple 100$ more? If I could get another color wrap for cheaper, that's cool.

How about this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7396692119&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
At first I thought the white on the bass was a missing fragment of wrap, now I see it's probably just a strip of muffling coming out. The description's pretty brief, I'd email a bunch.

or maybe a rogers? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7397276829&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

[O-Lugs]

Blue sparkle is probably THE most common sparkle finish. As common as it is, though, it's also a very beautiful and "nostalgic" color for a lot of people.

MOST of the blue sparkle kits I have seen have all had black hoops with the matching blue sparkle inlay strip. However, I know that Ludwig also did blue painted hoops on blue/silver Duco finished bass drums.

The person buys parts and possibly "stitches" different drums together to make a complete kit. The examples he uses for the badge numbers is completely confusing. I have never seen serial numbers like that!

There are great vintage Ludwig kits coming up for auction all the time.

After reading the feedback, in addition to the negative feedback he/she has received, they also received many "neutral" feedbacks with critical remarks. This is one of the worst seller-records I have ever seen. I would back away from this one for sure. That's my 2 cents.

[Coquelicot]

Yeah I think I'll stay away from that one.

Now I'm looking at the first blue sparkle kit, and the two I posted above.

I've seen every kit in and out of ebay for the past couple months, it sure is taking patience.

what does "COB" mean when describing a snare?

[Webmaster]

http://www.vintagesnaredrums.com/terms.html

David

[Coquelicot]

Thanks.

Could someone tell me about the various shells that ludwig used in the 60's? How did their sound vary?

I have no idea what shells are on these http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7396565891&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT
How can I tell? Should I care?

[O-Lugs]

Ludwig's famous vintage shells are made by laying out a thin veneer of maple, a thicker ply of poplar wood and then another thin veneer of either maple or real mahogany. Finally, if it was a wrapped finish (like a blue sparkle, for example), then that, too would be glued to form a "sandwich" so-to-speak. Then, the sandwich would be steamed and bent around a form to form a shell. The ends were joined using a scarf joint and part of the wrapped finish was actually tucked inside the scarf joint as a result. Then, lastly, two solid maple reinforcement rings were fitted and glued to the inside of the shell at the ends to provide both strength to the shell but also to make a nice fat area for the roundover bearing edges. (Most new drums today have sharp bearing edges.) There are good things about both, but the vintage Ludwig have a tone that's really nice and unique. The best drumheads to use on vintage Ludwig drums are Remo coated Ambassadors

Mostly until the very end of the 60's , Ludwig painted the insides of the shells with white paint. But at the end of the 60's, they started leaving the interiors clear maple and the wrap was no longer tucked inside the scarf joint.

Just for your information, the second blue sparkle kit is not a complete and original kit. The corrct configuration shouldbe 13/16/22 -not 20" bass drum. What that kit is is part of a kit and then part of at least one other kit. They do look like good drums, though. The long-term value as a collectible is not really there, so the price that it's at now is about the most I would want to pay for a pieced-together kit -strictly speaking as a collector. You are only 16, though, so you probably aren't as concerned with that...:)

Be patient and the right kit will turn up. I'll keep my eyes out on Ebay, too.

[Coquelicot]

Thanks! You guys have been really helpful. Whenever I'm strongly considering a kit, I'll ask about it on here before I send out $1000+.

One more thing. How does the sound differ with the mahogony inner ply and the maple inner ply? and does the white inside sound different from the clear inside? (i doubt it, but maybe it's more than just paint...)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7396692119&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

eh? These look great to me. I'm gonna email the seller.

[O-Lugs]

There really wasn't much difference, in terms of sound with Ludwig's 60's shells. Sometimes, the maple veneer went on the inside...Sometimes it went on the outside....Sometimes both inner and outer veneers were maple...Sometime both inner and outer veneers were mahogany. Most of the 60's Ludwig used a white paint to seal the interiors of the shells against moisture (like a humid environment) and also to cover up blemishes that might have been present in the veneer.

People refer to these shells as Ludwig "3-ply" shells.

I'm not sure of the exact date, but eventually Ludwig stopped making their shells the "3-ply" way and started using some other woods and methods of construction.

The red drums look pretty nice. Of course you realize that it's just the three drums with no hardware like stands, pedals, etc. On many occasions, it is possible to find a nice vintage Ludwig kit with all the original hardware, too.

I know you are itching to get a kit, but the trick to getting a vintage kit is to get one as complete as you can. And, when and if you score a nice kit, please make sure to be a good steward of it and take exceptional care of the drums. Never get lazy and lose the discipline of taking care of your "axe" -especially if it's a clean vintage one. They are much more special since they are no longer made the same way.

Vintage drums sound great but they also require an extra bit of care and "nice treatment" -because if an important part breaks, replacement parts are not always something you can find quickly. It usually means you have to go back to Ebay again and play the waiting game for the right replacement part(s) to come along.

You seem to be coming at this the right way, though. It's always better to collect as much information as possible before jumping into the vintage drum world! Peace.

[Coquelicot]

There really wasn't much difference, in terms of sound with Ludwig's 60's shells. Sometimes, the maple veneer went on the inside...Sometimes it went on the outside....Sometimes both inner and outer veneers were maple...Sometime both inner and outer veneers were mahogany. Most of the 60's Ludwig used a white paint to seal the interiors of the shells against moisture (like a humid environment) and also to cover up blemishes that might have been present in the veneer.

People refer to these shells as Ludwig "3-ply" shells.

I'm not sure of the exact date, but eventually Ludwig stopped making their shells the "3-ply" way and started using some other woods and methods of construction.

The red drums look pretty nice. Of course you realize that it's just the three drums with no hardware like stands, pedals, etc. On many occasions, it is possible to find a nice vintage Ludwig kit with all the original hardware, too.

I know you are itching to get a kit, but the trick to getting a vintage kit is to get one as complete as you can. And, when and if you score a nice kit, please make sure to be a good steward of it and take exceptional care of the drums. Never get lazy and lose the discipline of taking care of your "axe" -especially if it's a clean vintage one. They are much more special since they are no longer made the same way.

Vintage drums sound great but they also require an extra bit of care and "nice treatment" -because if an important part breaks, replacement parts are not always something you can find quickly. It usually means you have to go back to Ebay again and play the waiting game for the right replacement part(s) to come along.

You seem to be coming at this the right way, though. It's always better to collect as much information as possible before jumping into the vintage drum world! Peace.

I wouldn't mind a kit coming with a matching snare, but hardware, though convenient in many ways, is definately unnecessary. I'm fine with just getting three pieces, as well, because there's no shortage of vintage Ludwig snares. I'm sure a kit's more collectable with an original matching snare, but it's not really priority.

And yes, I am definately itching to get a kit. But I've been itching for a few months, so I'm being patient. Just an itchy kind of patience. I wouldn't buy a kit out of impatience.

Once I do have a kit, I will baby it. It would be such a shame to give vintage drums any but the best of treatment. Afterall, they don't make vintage drums anymore;) . Once I have a kit, I'll definately disturb you all with countless questions on how to keep it as nice as it can be.

Should I be concerned if a kit has repainted hoops or new old hoops?

[O-Lugs]

Vintage hoops are often nicked up from the claws and many times, people will touch them up with a black marker or in some cases, they will be stripped and re-painted. One gauge that I use in determining how well a set was taken care of is to look at the kind of shape the bass drum hoops are in.

New bass drum hoops often (but not always) lack the inlay space. It seems liek a small detail, but that inlay strip really "dresses" the look of a kit and ESPECIALLY a vintage kit.

I own a couple of Ludwig kits (a 1967 Jazzette kit and a 1970's blue sparkle B/O badge kit). My blue sparkle kit is in what I would call "pristine" condition -NO flaws, no scratches, no problems of any kind -like a new set, except 30+ years old! Granted, this kit is in exceptionally rare condition...but they are out there if you can just hold out long enough to find it.

We welcome the questions here! Good luck and I'll keep my eye out for something good!

By the way...What kind of music are you into?

[O-Lugs]

How about THIS shell pack?:

http://cgi.ebay.com/EARLY-1960s-LUDWIG-CLASSIC-DRUM-SET-SILVER-SPARKLE_W0QQitemZ7396186245QQcategoryZ64440QQrdZ1Q QcmdZViewItem

[Coquelicot]

I'm into indie rock. That's pretty broad, but it's just about all light rock. 22, 13, 16 would be perfect. Heck, 90% of the bands I listen to play vintage ludwigs.

That set looks good, but it will probably go up higher than I'd like. I'll watch it for sure, though.

[Coquelicot]

Yep. It went high.

Although I am primarily on the lookout for Ludwigs, something like these rogers still interests me.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7397937181&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

Could someone tell anything about that kit? Is it a cool/desired kit? How high do you suppose it will go?

I saw a "mardi gras" rogers in pretty terrible condition go high, so I'm assuming this one in nice condition will, as well.

Also, I don't know how concerned I should be about whether a kit is pieced together or all original. Didn't Ringo play 20', 13', 16'? If I decide I don't mind owning a kit that was pieced together, then this is a perfect deal:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7398561997&fromMakeTrack=true

Boy, this is taking patience.

Edit: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7397638048&fromMakeTrack=true
oh my goodness.... I wish my budget allowed this kit. It'll go up up up.

[O-Lugs]

WOW! That silver sparkle Ludwig kit went for WAY more tha I thought it would....It WAS REALLY nice, though!

Those are British-made Rogers drums. The bread & butter lugs were notorious for breaking. That kit is more of a historical museum piece.

The blue sparkle kit in question is a really nice one. I think it would serve you very well if you were to land it. I didn't mean to be discouraging in any way when I suggested that the kit is pieced together....UNLESS you are a new collector and might have thought that kit was all-original. As far as sound...well, I think vintage Ludwigs sound WAY better than other drums.

If that blue sparkle kit has a low enough reserve, then it might be a really nice deal. I KNOW it's going to sound great. Having the hardware will be nice, too. Also...many people actually prefer the 20" bass drum...Usually, the configurations go like this:

18" and 20" bass drums are matched with a 12 X 8 tom tom and a 14 X 14 floor tom

22" bass drums are matched with a 13 X 9 tom tom and a 16 X 16 floor tom

These are BASIC configurations. Beyond that, anything goes!

The psych red kit is also very nice and, yes, it WILL go high, I think.

[Coquelicot]

This one looks interesting. I'd ignored it before because it said 14x22, 8x12, 16x16, 5x14. I'd really rather have the 13' tom. But I just examined it closer, and as far as I know, the lugs/lug spacing on it suggest that it's a 13'. What do you think? 12 or 13? I just messaged the guy asking if he's positive on that size. If it's 13, that kit looks really nice. Three original 1958 drums and a mid 60's floor tom. I don't mind much that the floor tom is not original, because I'm not a collector and also, it seems like a lot of vintage kits have unoriginal floor toms. Also, it doesn't look like it's getting interest- Why is that?

Thanks.

Is there anywhere that I could hear vintage ludwigs on my computer other than old bands like the beatles? I really wanna hear the difference between the 20' and 22' bass.

[Coquelicot]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7404000670&fromMakeTrack=true

How does that look?

[Webmaster]

BDP is not the most popular color in my opinion. The mention of restored and bearing edges might mean they were cut.

I would email him and ask him more about the interiors and if the edges have been cut.

For some restored means cleaning and detaling and for others cutting edges painting interiors and changing parts.

Just make that clear with the seller before you bid.

David

[Coquelicot]

i was wondering what "restored" means.. i'll ask him questions if it's relisted. i hate the high pressure of emailing hours before it ends, haha.

[O-Lugs]

Looks like all of the mounting brackets for tom tom, floor tom legs and bass drum mounted cymbal are new (as in BRAND new). It looks like a nice PLAYER'S kit for the money. Definitely make sure the edges are unchanged....I'm guessing they might be re-cut....need pictures to tell for sure.