Are Camco Prices Getting Stupid?

[sabshga]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230157498028&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013

[mess]

I think they've been stupid for awhile! Especially here in Australia...
Looks like a few problems with the transaction too, judging by the questions section down the bottom.

[Antipodes]

Yes, they are. Aren't you glad we already have some?

Actually just picked up an (admittedly) LA COB for around 250 USD from a guy in Holland. Haven't got it home yet but looks like it was a reasonable buy.

But an LA 10 lug being sold by some guy on the Northern Beaches of Sydney a few weeks back went for over 800USD. I was just there and had been hoping to nail it for a song and stick it in my luggage - fat chance of that.

I guess we just cling on to what we have and look elsewhere than ebay in the hope of that find of finds, I guess.

Regards,
David

[sabshga]

I think I'm going to buy just one more piece. I'm still smarting from that George Way duco auction. A white pearl LA Aristocrat to finish off my four piece. If anyone ever sees one, let me know. I'll make it worth your while.

Cheers.

[sabshga]

If the LA COB is Aristocrat and it's in decent shape. It was a steal. The guy I referred you to in Chicago will connect you with a buyer right away. If you care. A good flip can finance your habit.

[mess]

I picked up a five piece LA camco kit in Melbourne with a 6.5 10 lug COB snare (22,16,16,13). Even though the kit had been refinished it still cost me $2000 Aus. Which, over here, I think is an ok price- considering what that snare went for!

[Antipodes]

That 6,5 COB snare with 10 lugs would sell very nicely on it's own. Yeah, happy about the COB purchase - it is an Aristocrat and seems to be in pretty good condition but it has been drilled once, hence the lower price.

Intend it as a player but want to move the snare mech to my maple finish 6 x 14 which currently has a Rogers Swivo strainer (which, by the way, are a good "make do" strainer if the other ones vanish or seize up - same hole spacing as the Camcos).

[Roscoe]

Remember that rarity is driving this market.

Especially for those of U outside the States.

My very first kit was an absolutely pummeled 12, 12, 13 ,14 and 20 Oaklawn "road kit" given to me in cases by the Everly Brothers.

You know what that's worth?

Parts.

Early DW's were for the most part Camco's and now
Dunnett is building beautiful George Way's.

My thought is to look closely @ new before you jump
on these er, outlandish bids.

Unless as noted, you're on a quest to finish off a kit.

Cheers!

[O-Lugs]

"Buy new"? Well, that's a questionable point to try and make at a vintage drum forum!DOH Personally, if I wanted a set of George Way drums, I would only want the real thing. The real thing is going to cost you more (...actually maybe not!), but it will also continue to be worth more and more as the years go by -plain and simple. It might be Camco today...It might be something else tomorrow. But one thing is for certain...and that is that even the very best new "copies" of old-style drums will lose their value. Most of these new "fad" re-issue, nostalgic-name drums are over-priced to begin with, in my opinion. You can still get the real thing for less money than you'ld spend on a new "vintage-style" kit! That seems a bit ironic to me! I can't see anyone collecting re-issues of anything. Anything that's new and made to resemble something vintage, is a losing investment, as far as I can tell. At best, they kinda look like vintage drums from a distance, but they usually sound like any other modern drum set out there. One of the most fun things about collecting vintage drums is learning and looking for the differences between the real deal and their copies -and the attention is in the smallest details. New vintage kits always lack something. There always seems to be a comprimise somewhere.

If you just want practical drums that sound good and you don't really give a toss about them as long as they do what they're supposed to do, then I would recommend getting some used Tamas or something. If you want a cool snare drum with that cooooool Camco throwoff, then you'll have to pay the piper because there isn't any other way to get them exactly like that and nobody is ever going back to the old ways of manufacturing to produce them like that again.CryBaby Violin

Don't get me wrong...I wouldn't pay that much for a snare drum -no matter WHAT kind of snare drum it was...but, that being said, many new snare drums are equally ridiculously-priced, too! -many times, even moreso than the Camco stuff.

Real vintage gear is going nowhere but up in value. Over-priced, modern, "nostalgic" gear is going nowhere but down. That's what I think.

[sabshga]

O-Lugs

I totally agree with the value assessment on the retro drums. The one thing I should add though is that I did play one of Ron's George Way snares at the last Chicago show and it was a very, very nice sounding drum. I agree that it is exceptionally difficult to imagine it going up in value, but I would rate it highly vs. many new production drums I've heard.

Roscoe

Re the Everly Brothers kit: I'm surprised the cases and the story didn't get you out of that one better than whole. That stated, I could use the cheap cross style strainer for my Oaklawn tuxedo snare if you have one of those available. Mine is missing the cross part, hence it hangs up when I close it.

Regards,
Gary

[Roscoe]

Take it easy, guys. :)

In the 80's - 90's the stuff was everywhere with "how much 'fer that there fancy drum" stories legion.

As a longtime collector and drum history nut, I see the availabilty of the old drums levelling off and now being priced accordingly.

Re-Issues not maintaining their value? What up with one John Aldridge then?

A growing number of players are re-considering Ludwig now that the company has decided to revisit their heritage.

Heck, Tre from Green Day is playing a new BB.

It is however, fortunate that drums generally didn't get cigarette burns or belt buckle rash. A DW "relic series" would surely follow...

Peace.

[O-Lugs]

I am not offended or upset. In fact, I LOVE the discussion! :)

-Re-Issues not maintaining their value? What up with one John Aldridge then?

To be honest....I don't think anything is going on with John Aldridge other than some nice engraving work -which really is more a form of artwork. That's where I think the collectibilty value is in something like that. He doesn't make the drums, i.e., the shells and components. He gets the parts and then assembles them and then he does his engraving thing to them. He filled a niche for the people who liked the look of engraved Black Beauties, but couldn't find a nice enough example of an old one. Again, as nice as they might be, they are a tribute (at best) to the real thing.

-A growing number of players are re-considering Ludwig now that the company has decided to revisit their heritage.

I have only seen a couple pictures of the new clear 3-ply shells. They DO look nice! But, where Ludwig is going to fail (I think) is, again, in the "little" details, i.e., no BB tone controls, no WeatherMaster heads, no P-83, different snare wires, etc. I would love to be wrong about my prediction...but, I don't think so. The main message I have been trying to get across is that, be they Camco, Ludwig, Way, Rogers, Gretsch or anything else that's a new "vintage" version of their former selves will fall short of the mark in one way or another -usually at a premium price. Since there is currently no such thing as a totally "made in America" drum set, the only real way to own an American drum set is to buy a vintage one!

-Heck, Tre from Green Day is playing a new BB.

Well, he's the perfect candidate to play one. ;)

-It is however, fortunate that drums generally didn't get cigarette burns or belt buckle rash.

Mine DID get cigarette burns back in the day...but that's a whole other story! ;) And I wish I had a dime for every 12" or 13" tom I have seen with scratches on it from rubbing the rim of the snare drum!


I hope this doesn't come across as sounding angry. I'm really digging the discussion. Mister T

[Roscoe]

Here's to continuing a passionately opinioned sort of spirited discourse...

I enjoy your comments, O.

Er, Lugs. :)

[Bebop]

Since there is currently no such thing as a totally "made in America" drum set, the only real way to own an American drum set is to buy a vintage one!
That's the truth right there! Plus Im sure the new Luddy 3 plys are going
to sound more modern. In fact I've already heard they do, and with a
list price of over 4000 USD for the 4 piece and 5000 for the 5 piece
I am not sure they are going to be a steal..

[O-Lugs]

WOW! That's a LOT of money for a vintage re-make.

I'll tell you what....anyone who is interested....Give ME the $4K and a few months and I'll track down a really nice REAL vintage kit for you and I get to keep the change as my payment! x-mas1 How's that? Four thousand dollars for a new re-make of a vintage-style kit? OR...a real vintage kit? Of course, I might not be able to offer you a lot of finish options! heh heh Excited

Yes, the new 3-ply shells look a bit "too" good from what I can tell. They appear to be a lot more tightly made. They ARE very pretty shells in any case, but they just are never going to be the same I don't think.

Yeah, cool discussion! I love it! Finally! There is something to bat back and forth about something slightly "controversial".

Another thing that I think is kind of fascinating is that there are so many attempts to re-create vintage stuff. The argument used to be that vintage stuff was "rickety"...that it broke down...that mounts and screws got stripped out and became unstable...etc. We've heard all those stories by now. So, of course, when the companies started in with the vintage re-make attempts, they all had modern iso-mounts and modern bass drum spurs and modern everything -"beefed up" everything. Maybe if you were lucky, the wrap might kinda/sorta resemble a vintage wrap...kind of.

That was how it started. Next, "real" mahogany made a comeback on the scene and roundover bearing edges started to overtake the newer double 45s in popularity, too. There was a fever for vintage all of a sudden and it seemed that everybody wanted the older vintage style stuff back again. That struck me as being kind of odd when it started happening. "New" things were less interesting than designs that had preceded them by decades!

I thought, "Why had drums suddenly stopped evolving and moving forward with newer and better designs -the way they had done when the Big Four drum manufacturers used to try to out-do each other's designs on an annual basis?" Of course, I knew it was because of cost. :(

American drum companies got to the point where they were no longer concerned with out-designing anyone here at home. They couldn't afford to do that anymore, after all. They were in a scramble to try and come up with ways to compete with Asia.

The way that Rogers, Ludwig, Slingerland and Gretsch used to compete with each other got thrown out the door but they tried to keep their boats afloat any way they could....Ludwig's Standard line of drums was an initial attempt to compete...They tried to get involved with supplying schools with snare drum kits -whatever else they could do. But, after they saw the bottom line a few years in a row it was pretty clear they couldn't win against the Asian competition and so then it became a matter of, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!" and inevitably, even American companies started getting most all their parts from Taiwan, too. And so, the forward-movement in the evolution of competetive drum design was halted in its tracks.

Things are now much more ho mogenous from company-to-company than they used to be. In one regard, it seems like there are a lot more choices, but at the heart of it, those choices end up being from a limited number of basic options. Nothing really stands out. Only the names remain to separate one drum from another these days.

All that and 2 cents more won't even buy you the foam on the top of a cappucino, but there it is, anyway. That's how I see it.singer

Peace!

[sabshga]

It's all about choice. I choose to play old kits because I like the way they sound and look and the prices are, at this point, at or around those of current high end kits. At this point for me there is no reason to buy retro, I've got enough old drums in good shape.

From a performance standpoint, new equiptment has to have the edge. It gives you the ability to place each piece in just the exact position that works for you ergonomically. Sonically, there are some darn fine sounding instruments available. I greatly enjoy my Dunnett, Noble & Cooley, Trick and Ayotte and Craviotto snares. There is really nothing that anyone could say to me that would make me feel that there are "better" instruments out there.

My old Camcos sound beautiful, Rogers, Ludwig and Gretsch as well.

I won't need to add retro pieces. But I will say that some of these pieces look gorgeous for whatever that's worth.

Gary

[imperialdrums]

Just caught this thread and read throug it, thought I'd add my 2 cents in as well. I think I look at this whole thing from an entirely different perspective.

I'm 20. I play in a rock band, and every once in a while we'll do an older cover, zep or hendrix. But the majority of our material is original and "modern", if you will. I own a recent (i'm pretty sure i bought it around 2004) Gretsch Catalina Birtch kit. I also own a '71-'72 Ludwig Mach 5 kit. Now I paid quite a bit ($700) for the Gretsch shell package, not to mention everything else. I know it isn't that high on the price scale, but it was the most I could afford on my measely budget. And the Ludwig I saved from the garbage man. I only put a few dollars into rims lugs and heads that it needed. They both sound great. But the Gretsch definately has the sound that I prefer. I bought it because it had the best sound quality to dollar ratio of anything out there. And they just discontinued the line. Go figure.

My main focus in the purchase of a kit was the bass drum. And I was pleasantly surprised by the Gretsch. It's 22x18 with an evans emadII and it's got the perfect blend of attack and low end. I do some double bass work, and this suits me just fine. I didn't think too hard about the snare when I bought the kit, because I had a very nice steel DW at home, but the snare that I ended up with this kit is again, voiced perfectly for what I want. I still like it better than anything else out there that I've heard. The toms sing with just the right amount of resonance and punch (8"-14").

But, the Gretsch stays in my home studio. I pretty much only use it to record. I have so much invested in it, that I don't want to risk anything happening to it.

I play out with the Ludwig. Now I know that my Mach 5 kit isn't the best example of a vintage kit out there, but for the sake of arguement... I have very little invested in it, and while i realize that most have quite a bit, it sounds great, and I have no problem playing out with it. It has quality of sound, looks cool onstage, and I'm not going to be out much if something were to happen to it. I use the DW snare with it, and it's never given me a problem. But it just doesn't jive with the mix if I were to record with it. Now I'll admit, these toms probably do sound better than the Gretsch's. They have that big powerful sound, but I'm not able to get as much of a range of pitch out of them as the Gretsch. But the snare doesn't have quite the tone that I like and the kick just doesn't fit into the mix as well as the Gretsch. It just doesn't have the same low end push, and I find myself over eq-ing it to compensate, and just ending up making it sound more and more unnatural.

So yes, there is a distinct difference between the old and the new, and that new sound may work well for some drum enthusiasts. And yes, the younger crowd is probably the group that will gravitate that way. But isn't this the group that will buy the most gear from these companies? It's in their best interest to sell to the drummers of tomorrow.

[Bebop]

My old Camcos sound beautiful, Rogers, Ludwig and Gretsch as well.

What about Slingerland? haha. Your toms would still have tack-on pigskin heads
if it weren't for them! Yes Sir

[O-Lugs]

sabshga,

Choice is a good thing, but one day sooner or later, all the collectible drums of value will be collected and the choice will not be there any longer. I believe that is the point at which the value of real vintage collectible drums will go ballistic. I'm not talking about vintage anything...I'm talking about nice vintage gear that is complete and in good shape. And this will happen TOTALLY because that choice will cease to exist one day.

In any case, I also own many new drums, too. I will likely always have the choice of buying new drums...but not so with vintage gear -especially in the area of matched drum kits. Collecting just snare drums is one thing...Collecting complete, matched drum sets is a bit more challenging -QUITE a bit more challenging....but that's partly what makes collecting them more fun (for me).

I know this discussion started out being about the price of a Camco snare drum, but what I am referring to, at this point, is more about the general idea that sometimes the valuation of drums is related to their availability -or lack thereof...and also to the demand for these things. Vintage drums are a finite commodity.

Choices are good, but sometimes choices go away. This is the case regarding vintage drums. Camcos, for example have gone away...and that's why the prices are "stupid" for the people who want them...but, as I have tried to mention already...the prices for new gear are even more "stupid" because they cost just as much (or more) than vintage and yet will lose their value over time whereas vintage will continue to increase in value.

So, I might now ask, "What's so stupid about Camco prices, after all?" :)

[sabshga]

I guess when I say stupid, I mean over the top. That's what a new high is, over the previous top. At the Chicago show a couple of month's back I was blown away by the number of $5,000 and up sets. I get the commodity theme. This whole thread started because $800-$1,000 seems to be the clearing price for non-pristine Camco snares on eBay. I think that vintage dealers at this point seem to be content holding inventory at a price waiting for the market to come to them. It is difficult to find a value at this point. From a speculation standpoint, it seems likely that good merchandise only available one at a time and by appointment should increase in value (x a global recession). It's just sticker shock for me because I haven't been doing this very long and moves have been severe in the last year.

Slingerland - I have one piece. A single ply 50s Radio King. Great drum. I am in the process of working a deal on nice Slingerland kit. My only experience playing them is a '58 Leedy mahogany shell kit that doesn't sound particularly great to my ears. So I didn't feel I was in a position to throw it on the list.

At this point my storage space is filled with a mix of players kits (all vintage shells), snare drums and a couple of good matched vintage sets See the gallery under my username). These are really for enjoyment at this point. I invest in other ways with greater liquidity and no storage requirements. That stated, I'm always open to something that seems to be value, is complete and has something asthetically pleasing about it. Value as in less expensive than what I have seen traded on eBay which is unfortunately my only reliable source for transaction information.

regards,

Gary

[O-Lugs]

Yes...Ebay seems to be the deciding balance in what the market will bear.

I too, collect other things that are easier to liquidate. When I look at many vintage items, I see a certain quality -something about the vintage stuff that pre-dates the idea of cut-corner manufacturing. Conversely, when I look at many new things, I can see the planned obsolescence -the one, little plastic part that you can't see that hold all the metal parts that you can see, in place. Some of these plastics have a finite life and then begin to denegrate after "X" amount of time. When it fails, all the inter-connected parts go with it. That's all been factored into the overall idea that you will then be forced to go back to that company and spend more money. The whole idea of it wreaks of intentionally suckering the buying public. If that's the modern way of doing business and designing goods, then I'll stick to collecting/trading my vintage items be they drums, guitars, furniture or whatever it might be.

I'm getting old. I can see that. HA!Keep on Pl

[sabshga]

A true conspiracy theorist. Micro sensitive strainers weren't exactly designed to be marveled at by future archeologists, but more the exception regarding old stuff. You're lucky to be getting old. It beats the alternative.

[bamboo72]

Ahhhh remember when you had to actually go to a drum show or get a mailer from Ned or something if you wanted vintage drums! Bought my first vintage kit from ned in 1993 when I was 21. None of the young guys were into vintage stuff (still reeling from DW at that point) I remember looking at a black and white newsprint catalog and saying "I'll take that one!" (a 69 clear interior Ludwig Ringo finish 12,13,16,22) Ahhh love.

[sabshga]

Not to be a buzz kill but that was 14 years ago. Your IRA has probably done just as well.

[Antipodes]

And just heading back to the original topic, a probably nice yet unspectacular LA Camco kit with minor alterations and no snare - let's see where this ends. In "Stradivarious" as opposed to "Stradispecific".

http://cgi.ebay.com/LA-CAMCO-RARE-STRADIVARIOUS-22-12-16-KIT-EXCELLENT_W0QQitemZ130142107492QQihZ003QQcategoryZ 38097QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

There's also a seven piece LA maple finish kit with many alterations going on Craigslist LA for 2500USD (and unless you could work out how to split it into two independent kits, I would call this stupid).

Just preparing myself to head off to what I think is Sweden's first vintage drum fair tomorrow some way out of Stockholm (nestling gently under the nurturing wing of a vintage guitar show) - will have my Oaklawn oval badge kit in tow to pose with.

[JohnG]

I have that kit on my watch list.......we will see........
John

[Rich K.]

Not to be a buzz kill but that was 14 years ago. Your IRA has probably done just as well.
True, but you can't play it, discuss it (well, I can't), and it doesn't look as cool!
At social events, it's more fun talking about my bands and drums than it is about my mutual funds and CDs! (Glad my wife takes care of that...)

[sabshga]

I guess that's why we are all on this forum and have our basements full.

[O-Lugs]

I guess that's why we are all on this forum and have our basements full.

Yes, indeed!Burger Kin

[sabshga]

Back to why I started the thread. So for what it's worth (less than what I paid for it) the 50s George Way Duco snare arrived and it is in exceptional condition. I'll have to spend some time cleaning some rust residue off the hoops and waxing the shell but it is about as good as you could expect a 50 year old anything to look without regularly cleaning it.

It sounds good too. I think 6 lug drums may be more "me" than anything else. We'll see if retuning it during an evenings's playing becomes an issue. I think 6 lug drums ring more with an off center stroke than 8s and 10s. My experience anyhow.

[Antipodes]

Classic finish - very nice indeed. Never played one. Only seen them from a distance.

[Roscoe]

Zoiks.

What a beauty.

To your point ( and a different post ) I personally
almost prefer 6 and 8 'bangers.

A more open sound and much less de-tuning along the way.

I have a silly little 50's Gretsch #4105 that will stop birds from
singing, and is all told worth $50.00 bucks...

Yes Sir

[sabshga]

Don't all snare drums stop birds from singing? Some times you need them to stop people from singing.

[O-Lugs]

LOL!

Okay...okay...Let me try and emphasize my already over-emphasized point! ...

Here goes:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110156415104&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=001

Okay...here is a beautiful-looking snare drum...vintage-style tube lugs...vintage-style case...vintage-style this...vintage style-that...MADE to be collectible...etc.

The "Buy It Now" price probably reflects somewhere near to the store's original asking price ($995.00). It is in mint condition and yet received only one bid...which likely didn't even come close to meeting the reserve price.

On the other hand....although I don't have a good Ebay example at the moment....I have seen some old drums selling for thousands...You know the ones!

As nice as the Ludwig anniversary drum may be, it represents more of an evolution in marketing than it does in actual instrument building or something unique enough to become a desired collectible, in my opinion. I would venture to say that many of these drums probably NEVER get used. It seems like someone figured out a way to make something that looks like it could have been stored away in a closet or under a bed for 30-40 years and then "re-discovered" in mint un-used condition and then have it garner the same status that people have come to know with, say, a 1967 Fender Stratocaster in a tweed case that the nice little old lady down the street digs out of an old blanket chest...or something along those lines. I think that's the whole idea behind these kinds of drums -not so much as how good they will sound, but more of how well they can create an aura of nostalgia. Again, the irony is that it is still currently possible to get the real thing (in many cases) for less of an up-front investment than it is to buy something new that is supposed to represent something vintage.

Of course, "used" is just that...it's been used and touched by someone else and that idea bugs some people. SOmetimes, people want the exclusive rights to their things and they don't want anything that's been used.

So, the vintage Camco drums are expensive by today's idea of something "used", but they seem to be a considerably better investment than do the new drums that are made to be like vintage -at least that would appear to be the case in this one particular example. Who knows? Maybe in 10-20 years, that Ludwig collectible drum will be worth thousands...but I just don't think so. I think the same thing will hold true for all the other drums of the "new vintage nostalgia" craze.

Even if every drum company under the Sun were to go back, re-tool and start making drums exactly the same way as they used to do 40 years ago, it STILL wouldn't change the higher-desirability of the real vintage gear.

And, someone made the point earlier about the fact that it is in the drum companies' best interests to pander to the young, up-and-coming "future" of drumming instead of making a bunch of old fellows feel better about themselves in their old age ( I am paraphrasing)...Excited That's a fair-enough point...But, this website is more focused on vintage gear and less about new gear or the future of drums and drumming. Therefore, I think it is interesting to make note of all the new gear that's trying to look like vintage gear. In a way, it could be an indication that there is no more forward-thinking...that the modern industry , as we now know it, has hit a wall...that there is nothing new to make...and therefore, the market responds in the only way their lack of creativity allows them...that is, to go backwards and try to RE-create something that was already done years ago! They want to now make new drums look like old treasure, but it's just a simple marketing deception.

It's not "pure evil" or anything really bad or anything...it's just drums, after all...but that's what we discuss here.Party

I guess my "beef" about this whole subject is best metaphorically exemplified in this movie trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyRXtPXUYUA

"Imagine a world where vintage drums cease to be vintage" ;)

[JohnG]

I guess my "beef" about this whole subject is best metaphorically exemplified in this movie trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyRXtPXUYUA

O-Lugs
I thought the same thing whe I first saw the trailer for this film.........
Bodysnatchers revisited.........

But...I do have a 2004 DW solid maple WMP snare with "vintage" lugs that is way cool.... I don't think of it as a throwback, but a cool looking newer drum.

[sabshga]

I for one would pay full price for a Nicole Kidman reproduction any day, without a second thought.Excited

[O-Lugs]

I for one would pay full price for a Nicole Kidman reproduction any day, without a second thought.Excited

Point taken! I agree!

[JohnG]

I for one would pay full price for a Nicole Kidman reproduction any day, without a second thought.Excited

Yea, but would she sound as sweet as a Supra when banging away...
Sorry, I could not resist.

[Antipodes]

And here's the result on that three piece LA kit - yeah, prices might be getting stupid.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130142107492&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=003

What would a slightly altered mid-70s Ludwig, Rogers, Gretsch or Slingerland three piece config like this fetch (I don't follow them so I have no idea)? I'm guessing considerably less than this.

Cheers,
David

[sabshga]

I don't know. That strikes me as more in line with common sense. eBay seems to be deleting the completed auctions much more quickly these days but didn't we see a guy sell a recovered 12/14/20 oaklawn for like 3K or 3.5K not long ago (this summer). Granted this one has irreparable holes in the tom and LAs go a little lower than Oaklawn and Chanute but it is a very nice player for $1,200. The buyer may never find the snare but I know the kit will sound great and that has to be cheaper than three new DW drums.

And here's the result on that three piece LA kit - yeah, prices might be getting stupid.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130142107492&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=003

What would a slightly altered mid-70s Ludwig, Rogers, Gretsch or Slingerland three piece config like this fetch (I don't follow them so I have no idea)? I'm guessing considerably less than this.

Cheers,
David

[O-Lugs]

Well...again, it just goes to show that the people who know that brand want specifically those drums -that EXACT brand -not a copy. "They" (those interested in the qualities specific to real, vintage drums) would be more willing to pay a high price -even for an altered example rather than support a market for new/old copies. If the new/old copies could be PRICED the old way, then they would have something to offer! So, I guess that's part of why I really don't understand the point of re-creating old-style drums. Who is the market, after all? The old guys won't want them, because they will know better and only want the real thing...The younger drummers won't associate with any old/obscure name and vintage-style components won't matter to them.

The more attempts there are to re-create the vintage gear will just make the real vintage gear more myterious and unattainable...which, in turn, will make it more desired...which, in turn, will make it more valuable to the future collecting market. (tah-dah!)

And, yes, there are ways to invest your money that are more productive than to invest your money in collectible vintage drums (maybe)...but, collecting vintage drums is a waaay more fun way to earn interest. Drums give me something tangible to covet!:p x-mas3

P.S., I wouldn't pay that high of a price for any drum or kit that's altered....but, now the market has been "thinning" out (in terms of matched kits) for awhile and people are getting hungrier. The result is a "second wave" of vintage drums that have been slightly (or greatly) altered, less-rare finishes...but still hold an appeal for the hardcore brand-name enthusiast...or parts scavengers...or for studios who know that certain vintage kits get a better sound under mics and don't really care what kind of tom mounts the drums have or if the serial numbers or badge styles are consistent or what kind of finish they have -in other words, to someone who wants them for more utilitarian purposes rather than for collecting purposes.

After the second wave is done, the third wave will begin and that will be re-wraps, "Frankenstein" drums, pieced-together kits -all the "leftovers" from the first two collecting waves.

..and then...the fourth wave will begin...By then, we'll all be dead.

The end.

;):p

[Jim]

Purple Moire Camcos at CPP for $2,‏500 is that "getting stupid" or a fair price for an awesome vintage kit??

"The sizes of the kit are 12, 13, 14, 16, 22, but there's no matching snare (at least that I can find right now). Chris White will know more about the drums, and you can reach him at repairs@columbuspercussion.com or by calling them at 614-885-7372 (800-775-7372 toll-free) and asking for him. He should be in Friday and Saturday of this week."

I could never afford that... but if I had that money laying around in the center console of the Ol'Toyota.. I might just spend it on those drums. ;)

[eamesuser]

I agree that Camcos going for so much money is still a mystery to me also.I realize they have a great heritage,George Way contributed so much to the modern drumset.The thing that gets me is that Gretsch brings good money but they had so many Jazz greats playing them,Camco had such a small segment of the market,and the only big name rock players I can think of that played them was Doug Clifford of CCR ,Dennis Wilson of the beach boys.Would the fact that they sort of morphed into drum workshop make the drums more valuable?I can't understand why a Camco from the mid 70's would go for thirty to forty percent more than say a 1963 to 1966 Rogers.I hate what Yamaha has done to Rogers,they could offer rogers as thier only re ringed shell and tool up the hardware as easily as anyone considering their metal working and machining resources,but how many 4 pc kits would they sell at a street price of 2500.00 to 3000.00 dollars when you can buy a original no mod 60's Rogers in good to great condition for 800.00 to 1200.00? But I do like what Mr. Dunnett is doing with George Way,shows a love of the heritage and vibe of vintage U.S.A Drums

[DolFan54]

I agree that Camcos going for so much money is still a mystery to me also.I realize they have a great heritage,George Way contributed so much to the modern drumset.The thing that gets me is that Gretsch brings good money but they had so many Jazz greats playing them,Camco had such a small segment of the market,and the only big name rock players I can think of that played them was Doug Clifford of CCR ,Dennis Wilson of the beach boys.Would the fact that they sort of morphed into drum workshop make the drums more valuable?I can't understand why a Camco from the mid 70's would go for thirty to forty percent more than say a 1963 to 1966 Rogers.I hate what Yamaha has done to Rogers,they could offer rogers as thier only re ringed shell and tool up the hardware as easily as anyone considering their metal working and machining resources,but how many 4 pc kits would they sell at a street price of 2500.00 to 3000.00 dollars when you can buy a original no mod 60's Rogers in good to great condition for 800.00 to 1200.00? But I do like what Mr. Dunnett is doing with George Way,shows a love of the heritage and vibe of vintage U.S.A Drums

Something got lost in translation over the years of collecting. Camco drums from Oaklawn were the drums to get, specifically the early Oaklawns with 4ply shells, COB hoops & chubby washers! Then it became anything Oaklawn as the newer collectors assumed that their Oaklawn drums just had the wrong hoops as it was thought ALL Oaklawn drums were created equal (this included me at the time as I was just getting into Camco drums). Now it seems that as long as it has a Camco badge on it the price tag is through the roof.

Here is a quick history lesson -

1957-60 George Way Drums - 3 ply Jasper shells, COB hoops
1961 - George Way Drums - 4 ply Jasper shells, COB hoops
1961-approx. '65 Camco Oaklawn Drums - 4 ply Jasper shells, COB hoops
Approx mid 1965-72 Camco Oaklawn Drums - 6 ply Jasper shells, generic triple flange hoops
1972-73 Camco Chanute Drums - 6 ply Jasper shells, generic triple flange hoops
1973-1978 Camco Los Angeles - 6 ply Keller shells, generic triple flange hoops

In both the Oaklawn & Chanute eras the interiors were painted white for wrapped shells and clear coated on exterior lacquer finishes but there are a few out there that don't follow these rules. There are a few 3 ply Jasper shell drums out there from the Oaklawn era but are quite rare. My 5x14 Burgundy sparkle Tuxedo snare is a 3 ply shell.

the 20/12/14 and 18/12/14 Oaklawn kits are worth big bucks and are the ones to get. All others should be priced much lower IMO. But the fact that Camco drums in general are hard to come by has really driven prices up.

Funny thing though is that George Way drums don't even come close in value to Camco drums and they are far more rare than Camco drums. A perfect example of older not alWAYs worth more.

I have drums from all eras and I will take a George Way kit any day over a Camco......but it's still a close call;)

[atomicmorganic]

Good news about 18,12,14s. I have an Oaklawn kit in these sizes. Players kit though, as it has been rewrapped in green sparkle. Came originally with a wood finish. No extra holes or anything, all original hardware.(Tom mount, spurs ect.) So how many of those big bucks could these fetch?