Buddy Rich's Drum Set???

[handyman_!]

I am considering this. I think it is a pretty cool find. Though I don't hold hope that this is one of Buddy Rich's drum sets that he personally played.
http://cgi.ebay.com/BUDDY-RICH-DRUMS-SLINGERLAND-VINTAGE-WMP-JAZZ_W0QQitemZ280101632743QQihZ018QQcategoryZ64442 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
What do any of you think?
Dave

[slingerlandsm]

being some what of a br fanatic i noticed this auction at work and thought how does someone have a br kit and not know it fast forward to this morning.I am sitting in my office at home looking at this thread staring up at my br snare collection which i am only missing the vox snare(hope tommy p sells his soon ha ha ) in the middle of these snares is my most prized posseision a album titled " buddy and soul buddy rich big band live in hollywood at the whiskey a go -go" that buddy signed and then took a photo in toronto in 1985 when i was 12 we have all seen this cover br leaning on his 13 " tom case checkout the stenciling of slingerland it matches the auction stenciling on the seat case even the g and e in slingerland being close together while the others are even i am trying to include a picture of the album from a web site mine is in a glass case any thoughts ? steve

[Webmaster]

Yep, this was talked about on another forum and also a topic on the Buddy Rich web site last year.

On that site they were talking about the exact height of Buddy's Canister Throne, being possibly higher then a standard throne. I will have to go back and see what was talked about to make sure, don't hold me to that statement.

Then again Tommy P. might or might not chime in on this and he could probably give us some topical information.

The only way to know 100% is to see if any _ _ s sweat from the throne top will produce some substantial DNA results.

(This is just a joke everyone and not my normal humor, I was trying to be funny in a sick mental sort of way.)

Have a great weekend everyone!

David

[Tommyp]

I guess I will have to chime in on this one!

I of course saw this kit when it was listed... and I don't for a minute think it's an actual touring BR kit... emphasis on "touring", and that's where the problem is in my opinion.

Buddy NEVER played a 20" floor tom, and I have a virtual TON of BR media in every format possible... never saw him with a 20"... HOWEVER! ... if this is a BR kit, it would at most have to be one of those that he perhaps played for a clinic/concert, or something of that nature. I do not think he EVER toured with this particular kit. There are so many pictures of Buddy from just about every performance/period, and again, can't say I ever saw a 20" floor tom with any of his kits. And that's a BIG drum... would be hard to miss!

Regarding the WMP Dynasonic: Again, don't think so! Buddy NEVER had any of his Rogers Dynasonics drilled for tone controls/mufflers, let alone two! He most certainly could have "played" this drum I suppose, but again, it's not one of HIS touring drums, and those are the drums that would really be worth some bucks. The serial number does put this drum squarely in 1966 however, and that is a proper BR Dynasonic year. Still, it's not a night to night used drum.

I had an opportunity to purchase an actual Buddy Rich owned/played/performed on Rogers Dynasonic in WMP. THIS drum was the real deal: NO MUFFLER, and extra lacquer on the inside ply, plus, it also had an inscription written by Buddy to the guy he gave the drum to. The autograph is genuine... I have a few of those, and it was easy to compare! The drum sold of course, and for quite a bit of jing as you can well imagine. I did at the time consider re-mortgaging our house, but my wife wouldn't bite! :-) Anyway,

If you like the drums because they're WMP Slingerlands... cool! But don't buy them because they might be Buddy's... I do not believe they are. And if they are, again, they are not a touring kit that he played night to night, of that I am certain. There's just nothing to substantiate that they are! Same goes with the WMP Dynasonic, plus I think this drums value has been extremely compromised with the drilling for TWO tone controls/mufflers. Still,

It will be interesting to watch!

Tommyp

[handyman_!]

Thank you all for your input!
I could hope it was a Buddy Rich but even the little bit I have read I knew that Buddy did not have tone mufflers installed and had the extra lacquer in his Dyna-Sonics. As far as my interest in the WMP drum set, I would like WMP drum set, it would go with well with the many WMP snare drums I have collect up over the years. I like the idea of trying a 20? Floor Tom also. I have never had one. But what will hold me back on this drum set is that when I reread the description the seller states, ?THIS HAS BEEN STORED FOR QUITE SOME TIME, IT IS DUSTY AND SMELLS A BIT MOLDY? We have a family member that is sensitive and allergic. I have other pieces with this moldy smell and I cannot keep them at the house. I have never found a way to kill the mold and get rid of the smell or the reaction to the item. Do any of you have experience with this?
Thanks
Dave

[Bebop]

We've been talking about it here:
http://drumforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=17972

No one seems to think it was his and I saw that throne
with the case on the 'bay awhile back from another seller.
I think this guy is just trying to grab some more cash..
The throne could easily of been buddy's considering it
has the extra padding that he liked.

The kit COULD'VE been Gene Krupa's as he
used the 20" floor tom but it seems just to be
a mismatched player's kit with what could be
buddy's old throne..

Bottom line: Don't bid on it for the buddy rich
reference but it could be a nice kit.

[Tommyp]

Harrison!

Please read my last paragraph in the post that precedes yours... sound familiar?! :-) Actually, for that matter, read my entire post! :-) I don't think these were Krupa's either. I do completely concur with you on "the seller looking to make a little extra" on the kit! Regardless, it did supply some fuel for the "forum chatter", regardless of what forum it was! And, while I'm thinking of it:

One of the posters on drumforum.org is in error on WHEN Buddy went over to Slingerland... the correct date is the fall if 1967... and then he stayed put until 1976. Being the BR freak I am, I have researched this extensively! It's all fun!

Tommyp

[Bebop]

Harrison!

Please read my last paragraph in the post that precedes yours... sound familiar?! :-) Actually, for that matter, read my entire post! :-) I don't think these were Krupa's either. I do completely concur with you on "the seller looking to make a little extra" on the kit! Regardless, it did supply some fuel for the "forum chatter", regardless of what forum it was! And, while I'm thinking of it:

One of the posters on drumforum.org is in error on WHEN Buddy went over to Slingerland... the correct date is the fall if 1967... and then he stayed put until 1976. Being the BR freak I am, I have researched this extensively! It's all fun!

Tommyp

Tommy! I think I've learned to read other posts before
I post my own now! Lol, my bad! At least we agree
with each other. ;)

[Ken Kroncke]

Good morning, all:

Take a close look at the snare head shot of the Dyna-sonic. The one tone control that is in place is mounted on the snare head side. Another mystery!

Ken

[Tommyp]

Ken!

Well yeah Ken... that's pretty plain to see! We all noticed it... and ... no mystery really... because ... this isn't Buddy's drum. If it ever "was", it was used for a clinic/concert only, and even that's probably a stretch, but because I wasn't there and didn't see who owned it, we have to mention that it "could have been used" by BR... but I doubt it! Having said that:

Whomever owned this drum is the dill-weed that drilled it for TWO tone controls, and most certainly because they didn't know HOW to properly set-up a Dynasonic snare drum... thus ... TONS of unwanted/misunderstood "vibration" from the snares. The fix? I know... I'll mount another tone control to dampen the resonant/snare side head! Yeah... that's it! Wow. Boggles the mind. Funny thing is, troubles with Dynasonics are much more common than anyone thinks, and it's ALL because no one took the TIME to read the set-up instructions that came with the drum originally!

Tommyp

[handyman_!]

Tommyp
From the image shown on eBay I cannot rule out that the extra holes are factory. The seller attempted to send me extra images but they did not make it through the email. So I don't know. what do you see that convinces you that this is modification by a previous owner? Have you seen extra images? Thanks your input is always appreciated!

[Tommyp]

Hey Dave!

You know, so much of this gets into a "gray area" as there is no real way to absolutely know who did what to this drum! But, this I do know:

It is EASY to add tone controls/mufflers to ANY manufacturers drum with a little patience, some precision, and a drill. I just don't think that Rogers would set up their TOP OF THE LINE snare drum with a tone control dampening the bottom/resonant head... that goes against everything the Dynasonic was designed for! In all my years of playing/studying Rogers drums... ( and there are a lot of years! ) ... I haven't ever seen this configuration before, and probably won't ever again... because it's just stupid. However... who knows if it was requested when the drum was ordered, or added later... ( which is what I think is the case here! ) ... it doesn't change the fact that it is just dumb. And...

There is no freaking way that BR would own/play this drum in this set-up with not one, but two, tone controls! I have a TON of BR media, all types, dating back to the late 40's, up and through his Rogers endorsement, and have never seen ONE tone control on his Rogers Dynasonic snare drums let alone two. The value of this drum is ruined in my opinion, soley BECAUSE of the EXTRA tone control.

Tommyp

[Ken Kroncke]

Lighten up, Tommy. Since Rogers' philosophy, particularly in the 60s, was to adapt to drummer's needs, anything was possible. I have had kits that clearly exhibit something other than you find in their catalog. Rogers was all about research and experimentation in the late 50s and early 60s. Sure, the snare head tone control makes no sense, sort of like your "dill weed" statement.

[Tommyp]

Ruffled your feathers a tad did I Ken? Let's address that first, then we can talk about Rogers! And while I'm at it... WELCOME BACK to Rogers after a 20 year hiatus! As for me, let's see... I make my living playing professionally... ( 38 years now! ) ... and also through the vintage drum... buy/sell/restore scene... with Rogers being my area of knowledge. Reason for that I guess would be 40 years of owning/playing Rogers drums! So...

The term "dillweed" was meant entirely in a sarcastic/comedic vein. I am still boggled as to WHY someone would ADD a tone control to the resonant head of a SNARE DRUM... especially a Rogers Dynasonic. This wasn't meant to insult/offend... but you obviously were. Makes me wonder... you aren't the "dillweed" that did it are you? HA!!!!!! Just jokin' here again Ken... so please don't get your shorts all rufflled! After all, you are in agreement with the addition of the tone control for the bottom/resonant head being ridiculous... and that is coupled with the fact that the ORIGINAL inquiry of this thread was "could this have been Buddy's snare drum"... and again I maintain that no, it wasn't. Well, at least in the configuration it is in now anyway. And for the record: If I was the one that drilled this drum for a second tone control/muffler for the bottom/resonant head, I would call myself a "dillweed"! Nuff said there.

Regarding Rogers and their "philosophy" towards experimentation/building drums: YES!!! Ken, I agree... to a point. I would like to see these drums that you have owned that came out of the factory "exibiting something other than you find in the Rogers catalog", with the obvious exception being additional mounts/accessories which in no way compromise the tonal integrity/intention of the drum... unlike the second tone control on the Dynasonic in question. Without launching into a giant dissertation on the reasons for HOW the Dynasonic came to be with regard to it's invention/development, I can only imagine Joe Thompson rolling his eyes if and when the order actually came in to mount an additional tone control on the BOTTOM/RESONANT snare head of his baby, the Dynasonic snare drum. Would Rogers service that request? Sure they would! They were after all in the business of selling drums. But there would have been a lot of head shaking/eye rolling I'm sure. Remember,

The whole reason behind the Rogers Dynasonic snare drum in the first place was to create a drum that wouldn't choke... under any circumstances. A tone control on the bottom/resonant snare head... nope, don't think so. I still think it was added after the fact because of the very reasons I mentioned prior: The owner/player didn't understand how to set the drum up correctly... and if a Rogers Dynasonic isn't set up correctly, it can be a virtual "buzz-bomb". So...

Was the person responsible for the addition of the tone control a "dillweed"?... NO ... and again it was meant in a humerous vein. But it sure was dumb. Oh, by the way,

I have/play four Dynasonics, two of which are wood/WMP. My 1967 WMP Dynasonic has NO TONE CONTROL... could it be Buddy's???!!! :-)

Tommyp

[handyman_!]

I guess this is all academic now the seller pulled the Buddy Rich Dyna-Sonic with 2 factory tone muffler hole sets. I have to say though that having dealt with exceptional customers on high end products, which lend themselves to customizing at the factory and dealership levels _ (for most of 30 years now) _ it would be my opinion that a factory installed second muffler is more than possible and even likely. If this particular eBay seller had sent the images I asked for and if the holes looked as factory as they could in a digital image, I would have sent my son to inspect. Holes that would pass scrutiny for possible factory holes? are difficult for the average person! If my son thought it was possible these holes were factory I would have attempted to buy this Dyna snare drum. That is why I was very interested to know why some think this is not factory installation. The only images I can see don?t provide me with an opinion one way or the other and I have experience looking for such proof.
Though I don?t think I of know anyone who uses a single adjustable muffler? maybe I do? much less know anyone who would want two of them? I would like to own such a unique Dyna snare drum, if it is believed to be original or a modification by an authorized Rogers service center of the day. Either of these possibilities I would find appealing. Factory installed, "very appealing". Dealer installed, while not quite ?very appealing?, still appealing to me if they used a template and drill press for precision.

This Dyna would always have a story. Resale will never be as simple as a clean standard issue example or a clean example without any tone muffler? because who knows who owned or previously played the Dyna without the tone muffler installed from the factory.

With most high end collectables there are no absolutes except maybe that there will absolutely be exceptions to the catalog listings. Smart collectors look for the items that they are passion about in historical photographs that inadvertently show the items in use.

This drum may have been owned by a local hometown hero that just wanted to try two mufflers. One up and one down! But we may never see this drum again? so I don?t know. I have written the seller to see what happened and if I can get this drum, with one up and one down, I will have my two sons do an analysis of it, both audio and video. I think it would be at least interesting and I think it may very well prove some here correct.

If anyone hears of another "one up and one down" Dyna I am interested!

Thanks
Dave

[handyman_!]

I have/play four Dynasonics, two of which are wood/WMP. My 1967 WMP Dynasonic has NO TONE CONTROL... could it be Buddy's???!!! :-)
Tommyp
Hey unless you absolutely know it wasn?t owned or played by BR at some time there is a % chance that it is BRs.
For example any ?50s Gibson Explorer ?ink stamped serial number? you see has at least a 13% chance of being owned by Eric Clapton. If you can see that the neck was broken and then repaired or if the body was cut aftermarket the % goes up.Yes Sir
Thanks
Dave

[Tommyp]

Hey Dave!

You know, you are an excellent guy!... and I base that on all of our conversations!... but ... this thing with the TWO tone controls on the Dynasonic is just NUTS! I don't know why you are so attracted to it. Regardless, if you totally understand how the Dynasonic snare drum was conceived/designed, you will then know that a tone control/muffler on the bottom resonant head is just plain ridiculous.

The whole idea of this snare drum is sensitivity/response/no choking, all at any volume level, and the drum delivers. Now... for the sake of argument, DAMPEN the bottom resonant head with the tone control/muffler... what do you have? A muffled/choked/very DRY sounding Dynasonic. What's the point of doing this? If that's the sound one is looking for... don't buy a Dynasonic. It's really that simple. I would say have a re-read of response #14. What I wrote about Joe Thompson probably really happened if this was factory installed. He had to have rolled his eyes! The second tone control/muffler goes against everything that was designed into the Dynasonic. I just don't get it.

I don't think you will find another one either. I honestly think this was done to try and "control" the sound of the drum by the original owner who obviously had no clue as to what he was doing regarding the set-up of a Dynasonic. Too bad too... it is WMP... it is a 1966... desirable qualities!

I was just kidding on my '67 WMP Dynasonic Dave... I know that it isn't/wasn't Buddy's! I have the history on this drum... cool thing is, I am only the 2nd owner! Always a pleasure Dave!

Tommyp

[Webmaster]

Not wanting to interfere with this topic and I'm not a Rogers collector etc..

But from a builders standpoint if the drum already had a tone control it, it would not take a skilled craftsman much effort to make the second set of holes.

Since he could base the entire project on measurements he already has.

Currently a lot of guys are building drums better then current manufacturers with better craftmanship.

So if the guy had some talent he could easily duplicate the second set of holes. And over the years if both tone controls were installed they would both take on the same charecteristics.

That is all for me, I can't add any more to the topic other then that little perspective.

On another note however, in regards to Dill Weed have you ever used it in cooking? Laughing HGroup Hug

David
Webmaster

[Tommyp]

Nah... I prefer Basil!!!

Tommyp

[The Ploughman]

This is why some bass drums are filled with packing peanuts or blankets.


You cant dampen the resonant on a Dynasonic with out turning it into crap.

[handyman_!]

Hi Tommyp

You are a great guy. No doubt about it! My sons and I look forward to your comments and we always appreciate your thoughts and input even when stated with blunt force.

Please don?t misunderstand me, I don?t want a dual tone muffler Dyna Sonic because I think it will work some sonic magic, I would want this piece because;
1. I believed it was built with two tone mufflers by the factory
2. It was modified by a top dealer like the late Ellis Tollin, if they even did such a thing.
3. It is and I quote ?is just NUTS!?

In guitars for example it would be like buying an original two pick-up Stratocaster! Or a Fender Vibrolux heavily modified by Caesar Diaz etc. It has nothing to do with whether I think that a Caesar Diaz modified Vibrolux is better or not. And I wouldn?t buy the two pick up Stratocaster because I think it is better than a three pick up Strat! I am not thinking is it better or inferior? I give no thought or consideration to the original chief designer?s intentions!

Are the anomalies stupid or ridiculous??? For some reason I don?t think so. But I am not looking at it from a niche perspective or from the view point of the original design. But that is just my opinion. It is a good thing for the Stratocaster that Jimi Hendrix didn?t understand what the Stratocaster was designed for? CBS had decided to discontinue the Stratocaster due to lack of sales when along came Jimi!

I am not saying that this is how anyone else should approach this. It is just how I approach it. With all that said I don?t want you to think that I just buy the oddball stuff, I buy the straight stuff also.

Once again thank you for your thoughts. I value your perspective! And I appreciate the effort you expend on this forum. Without participation like yours these forums would be of less value.
Dave

[handyman_!]

Not wanting to interfere with this topic and I'm not a Rogers collector etc..

But from a builders standpoint if the drum already had a tone control it, it would not take a skilled craftsman much effort to make the second set of holes.

Since he could base the entire project on measurements he already has.

Currently a lot of guys are building drums better then current manufacturers with better craftmanship.

So if the guy had some talent he could easily duplicate the second set of holes. And over the years if both tone controls were installed they would both take on the same charecteristics.

David
Webmaster

Hi David,
I agree with what you say. But in my experience these are not usually the people doing 95% of the modifications to fine instruments. Without seeing the drum I don't know if the holes look factory. Even if holes do appear to be perfect factory holes, for some of the very reasons you state there would always be some doubt, unless we find that old guy from the factory that remembered doing some like that. But even then...
Best to you!
Dave

[Tommyp]

Ah jeeze Dave... now you've gone and done it! I thought I had said all I was going to say regarding this particular subject... ( with "blunt force" no less! ) ... and THAT is what I want to comment on. So...

Firstly, THANKS! for the very nice comments regarding my writings/thoughts on this board. That was very nice of you! This particular forum is an excellent one... probably one of the BEST in some specific areas regarding vintage drums.

I had to laugh at the "we appreciate your thoughts and input even when stated with blunt force"... I don't know Dave, "blunt force" sounds so, oh... harsh. I prefer to call it a "matter of fact" tone. I have spent many years owning/playing/researching/restoring Rogers drums, and what happens is one gains an awful lot of knowledge through actually "doing", as opposed to just "saying", this is how it is. I am very confident in what I speak having to do with Rogers drums... I certainly don't make it up as I go! Thus, yeah, I would say that it can come off as very "matter of fact", but certainly not with "blunt force", and never meant to belittle or be condescending.

If there is an issue being discussed that there is no way I could possibly know for sure about, like the WMP Dynasonic w/two tone controls in this case, well yeah, I enjoy a good discussion/debate, and I will add what I think may be going on with this particular piece, and in a "matter of fact" way. And again, that comes from a confidence gained through YEARS of owing/playing/researching/restoring Rogers drums. It also goes without saying that I am amazed at how much we still don't know about some of these drums! So,

Thanks for the nice words!... and I guess I just don't mince words... but now you know why that is! Speaking of "blunt force", Ploughmans post #20 says it all, and in a way that leaves nothing else to be said, and I have to agree totally with his very simple statement:

"You can't dampen the resonant on a Dynasonic without turning it into crap".

Excellent Ploughman! That is exactly what I was saying... except I tended to be a bit more loquacious!

Tommyp

[handyman_!]

Tommyp, Your Loquaciousness is fine. From your last post it is obvious we see at least a few things quite differently. As it pertains to this subject, some people might think that a ?Matter of fact? statement, might go something like ?using a second muffler on the resonant head would defeat the design engineer?s intended purpose? and the discussion continues.

Why might somebody want to defeat the design engineer?s intended purpose?

Words like ridiculous, stupid, ruined etc. can be used in such a way that these words will sometimes slow a discussion. In certain situations and depending on who you are discussing a subject with, these words can leave little room for discussion.

Is it not possible that some drummer at some point felt a need to defeat the design engineers intended purpose for this drum? If the drummer thought he needed a second muffler for the resonant, would it be stupid or ridiculous (or crap) to add the second tone muffler for the resonant? The old adage in the recording studio is, ?if it sounds good use it.

The band Mountain defeated the Celestion Speaker design engineers intended design by using a razor knife to cut slits in the speakers of their amplifiers. This gave them a new sound which gave us the classic ?Mississippi Queen?! Was this stupid or ridiculous? Jimi Hendrix submerged speakers in water for recordings. These are devices that were designed for disturbing air molecules and/or sensing variations in air pressure. Water??? Was this stupid or ridiculous? Maybe that did ruin those items.

Having never dampened the resonant head of one my Dyna-Sonics with an internal or external muffler, I don?t know if it is ?crap? or not. I guess it could be truly ?crap? depending on you definition of crap. I don?t know?

I can see now that I could have used ?matter of fact? rather than, ?blunt force? to maintain a better relationship with you. I would like our relationship to be as good as possible. I was not my intention to ruffle your feathers, offend you or anything like that. I can also see that when answered question of ?Why I am so interested in this drum?? I should have just answered, ?I am curious?. A short post like that would have been sufficient and stated all that I had to say. Hopefully I will learn from Ploughman. I was just hoping for discussion and discovery in an area of curiosity.

Tommyp, I can tell that you feel at least somewhat offended and for that I apologize. When posting the post that you object to, I was feeling no ill or critical feelings. I had actually very positive feelings. I had hoped to enlighten you as to why someone might be curious about that drum. I obviously failed. I hope we can have discussions in the future. As I said before I value and appreciate your insight and input whether or not it is delivered in a ?matter of fact? manner. Sorry for any offense!
Have a great day!
Dave

[Tommyp]

Hey Dave!

You have to READ a bit more carefully Dave! I said I had to LAUGH at your comment... never did I say I was offended... because I'm not! Look, here's the extreme bottom line/final comments on this issue from me:

You can do anything you want Dave! No one is going to judge you... and neither am I! If you want a Dynasonic with two tone controls/mufflers, by all means! I was simply stating that a Dynasonic set up in that manner isn't a Dynasonic... it completely defeats the entire design/purpose of the drum. But!... I have no problem with it, as it's not mine, nor would I do that to one of mine.

Our relationship is great Dave... I'm not that kind of a guy... nor do I bruise easily. There was never a problem. I AM passionate about Rogers drums though, and that should come shining through... that and the fact that I have YEARS of experience with them, and not just collecting. I make my living playing Rogers drums... and I do know how lucky I am! So...

We are certainly good Dave... there was never a problem on my end. You know, what did that drum get up to? $2200.00 I think? That seller should have taken it!

Tommyp

[handyman_!]

Very good! And I can do that in the future. Yeah, it was over $2200.00 on the fastest rise I have seen for a wood Dyna on eBay when the seller pulled it.
Dave

[IsaacHeath]

To stop my dad from chasing after bizarre vintage musical pieces would be to tie a birds wings... It would also be like engaging a muffle to the bottom side of a 1966 WMP Dyna-sonic!

Thank you two for the thread. Personally, seeing that second set of holes hurt me inside. The Dyna-sonic is such a beautiful, big, breathing (but still focused) instrument that even moderate muffling seems absurd.

TommyP, will you be at the Chicago drum show??? Hope to see you there.

Isaac Carpenter

[Tommyp]

Issac!

It would have been nice to meet at the Chicago show! I went two years ago, and it was a fine time. Unfortunately, I have gigs on Friday/Saturday and can't sub them out... thus I will miss the show this year. I will be at the CT Vintage Drum Show this Sunday coming though. That show gets better each year!... still in it's infancy compared to the Chicago show, but it's a nice hang. Thanks!!

Tommyp