rogers drum kit

[drumgus]

so this guy is selling me this rogers drumkit i dont have lots of info but its 10, 12, 14 and 16 toms and 22 bass drum.. its from the 70`s heres the pic.. the price is 1,800 dlls.

[The Ploughman]

In my opinion, you are being hosed.

Theres no Rogers kit ever made from that era worth that money.

If indeed thats a Rogers kit at all. The spurs on the bass drum tell me, 1) either they have been changed out, which probably reflects shell integrity issues, or 2) its an island music era rogers. The hoops scream Island music era Rogers.


So, my opinion is that you are getting hosed. I would not pay 300 for that kit.

[Mike T]

I strongly agree and i am a Rogers Player and have been for 40 years . Those are what are known as BIG R era Rogers drums,they are just about the least desirable of any rogers drums and i would liken them to Pearl Export at best... you can buy the same kit on Ebay for 400 or under...When Rogers left the fullerton Era in my mind they quit being the rogers so sought after by collectors . Save your money buy a true vintage Rogers set or something else...

[The Ploughman]

Until about 1983, maybe even just a tad bit later, Rogers Big R were damn fine drums. And I dont need to tell you what you can do with your pearl exports. The early Big R era, were the same 5 ply shells that Rogers was so famous for, the hardware was rock solid. The sound was awesome. The XP8 era from 79-83 were probably the best drums rogers ever built. The kit this guy is asking about is an import kit, from the Island Music era of Rogers, after CBS farmed off the name to someone else. They are firewood. The Big R badges arent the same size, the Made in USA is missing, the Beavertails are a different size, the shells have luan ply. Even the memrilock ratchets were gear tooth spaced on a metric scale. They are a different size and do not match up to REAL Rogers. They are Asian Imports of the Export stripe. Ive played Rogers ever since I started playing on day one. I have a few sets.

[Mike T]

Until about 1983, maybe even just a tad bit later, Rogers Big R were damn fine drums. And I dont need to tell you what you can do with your pearl exports. The early Big R era, were the same 5 ply shells that Rogers was so famous for, the hardware was rock solid. The sound was awesome. The XP8 era from 79-83 were probably the best drums rogers ever built. The kit this guy is asking about is an import kit, from the Island Music era of Rogers, after CBS farmed off the name to someone else. They are firewood. The Big R badges arent the same size, the Made in USA is missing, the Beavertails are a different size, the shells have luan ply. Even the memrilock ratchets were gear tooth spaced on a metric scale. They are a different size and do not match up to REAL Rogers. They are Asian Imports of the Export stripe. Ive played Rogers ever since I started playing on day one. I have a few sets.

Hey everyone has their own opinion and that is fine by me just don't want to see anyone get hosed on a drum set...for me if it was not made between 1960 and 1971 i am not interested..but that is me nice looking drums Ploughman.. :)

[The Ploughman]

Agreed, if he buys those drums, hes getting hosed. They are Rogers like the brooks mays firewood was Rogers. For as much money as he is looking at throwing away, he could find a nice Cleveland, or Dayton set, possibly even with a matching Tower or Powertone snare drum. It really pains me to see someone who hears the name, Rogers, and buys or plays one of the crappola sets after the name left the USA, and then associates all Rogers with being garbage. And Rogers wasnt the only great name destroyed by corporate mishandling.

[Mike T]

So true ,it saddens me to see what happened to Gretch, Slingerland,and Rogers they did so much for the drum industry. now days who can afford to buy a American drum set?

[O-Lugs]

Rogers Memriloc hardware set the pace for every other drum manufacturer to follow. Sadly, as with a LOT of drums of that era, Rogers had improved the drums so much, they actually didn't improve them....if that makes sense! The intrusive tubular arms of the Memriloc hardware sapped resonance and sustain from the drum -which were basically the same shells that Keller had always made for Rogers...except with some speckled gray paint.

I ordered my first Rogers kit in 1974, but the drums didn't arrive until months later and when they showed up, they were the new and improved Rogers Memriloc...which, at the time, I thought was awesome! I think I must have gotten one of the very first Memriloc kits because the snare drum had the script badge AND the Big R badge and the floor tom had the knobby mounts with the hexagonal legs...but also had the Big R badge. I can personally attest to how well they worked -because I still have a bunch of the drums that came with that kit and they still function 100% perfectly.

How do they sound? Well...I've heard better sounding drums, but they do have a sound that was of their era if nothing else.

All that said, the drums in the picture are probably worth about 1800 pesos -not dollars!

[wayne]

TRUE....Anyone playing memory lock these days have stored all the tubing,and use rims or whatever,and they sound terrific.

[Mike T]

Well for me i started with swivelmatic and never looked back..i still swear by it today, i never cared for the big and bulky memriloc hardware,nor the look of the Big R badges....i like drums that when you hit them they do not move..and i can not stand the suspension systems of today ,drives me nuts watching the toms and floor toms bouncing all over the place ..guess i am just a dinosaur...i am oldschool LOL i love the sparkle finishes of yesterday and the pearls they to me have some soul..the stain finishes of today just look fugly to me ..

Ginger baker even had swivel matic tom holders on his 68 ludwig set as did alot of other players including Kieth moon, and Mitch Mitchell, i guess it just cost to much to produce it ...just like the early machined Knobbies verses the cast hollow ones ,yes Rogers set the standard and it was a high one ..Keep on Pl band3 Excited

[O-Lugs]

I love the Swiv-O-Matic hardware (Who doesn't?). It's the coolest looking hardware ever made, in my opinion. But, I was 14 years old in 1974 and anything about drums taht was bulkier or bigger was also...cooler! Of course, looking back on those days, I wish I had gotten the Swiv-O-Matic hardware and the older script badges.

-Same thing happened with Ludwig when they entered the arena with their "Modular" hardware. Those were the days of power toms and double bass drum kits...concert stages set up on flatbed trailers...skinny guys with long hair...the smell of $15-a-"lid" pot in the air...I can't explain how "wrong" that era was...because I was having too much fun living in it! HA! Excited

[Tommyp]

Jeeze O-Lugs!...

I can't disagree with ANYTHING you have stated in your last post!!!! It's as if we BOTH lived the same life!!!!! HA!!!!! Actually...

There really wasn't anything "wrong" with that particular era... but you know what was right? That we all got out of it... ALIVE!!!!! And of course now that maturity has taken over... ( for the most part anyway! ) ... it's neat to have a look in the rear view mirror! Excellent post!!!

Tommyp

[Mike T]

Yes indeed great post! gone forever are the days of seeing the Eagles,Black oak Arkansas,Santana,and Grand funk railroad all at the same place in one day for 5 bucks....I saw Creams last concert in LA cost me 6.50 for 10th row and Deep Purple opened it was their first US show ....then there was the Yardbirds saw them for 2.50...when i am so grateful i made it out of the mid 70's alive the 60's were easy i was just having to much fun playing music...

[The Ploughman]

Rogers XP8 1980 USA Drums, 16x18 BD, 8x12, 14x14 (keller 8 ply built to Rogers Spec.) married to the Swivomatic era. I spent a small fortune on Cleveland era mounts for the BD. I used Fullerton era knobbies for the floor tom and Rogers Hex FT Legs. Recovered in green glass glitter. Sound is tremendous. The snare drum is original green glass glitter, 1960s Slingerland Niles badge.

[bill young]

wow...with all due respect, I love Rogers, but their Swivo hardware was complete crap and I think we are a bunch of old men trying to relive childhood days to even think that crap was durable and even functional. The design of having a couple little cheesy set screws hold a 10 pound tom in place while getting wailed on...doesn't bode well at all. It was, and is not sturdy stuff. Oh sure, its cool hitting your ride tom and watching it bounce, but puleeeaze....nothing like snapping off a set screw vs not tightening tight enough and watching your tom collapse in the middle of a fill. I think we get caught up in the 'glory days' and fail to be real. The whole collet thing and good Lord, I remember struggling as a kid trying to loosen that crap all the time. The palm of my hand felt like someone hit it with a ball peen hammer after wrestling with swivo stuff. Then the ball would get pitted where the screws tightened.....So, if you want to mount those shells on a snare drum stand, that's one thing....hook it up to a wire hanger....I'll pass.

[O-Lugs]

Well, Bill...with all due respect...this is a vintage drum forum...so MOST of the gang here is apt to be made up of people who like the older stuff. Yes Sir

[bill young]

Well, Bill...with all due respect...this is a vintage drum forum...so MOST of the gang here is apt to be made up of people who like the older stuff. Yes Sir

hey no problem....I'm into the older gear as well, but seriously....it is more for nostalgia than it is quality. To proclaim that the old swivo is the best or good quality is somewhat absurd. It is nostalgic and therefore a perfectly good reason to collect the stuff. But seriously, to mount your tom on a coat hanger and claim that is quality stuff:(

[Webmaster]

Come on now, I have seen many a coat hanger hold up an exhaust system.
So even coat hangers can be sturdy Excited

David

[wayne]

May I?....Vintage is just that...old stuff,and yes i wrestled with wonky tom mounts and such and ripped skin off my knuckles too,but those are the memories.We,re not talking good or bad here,just memories.If you notice,most vintage hardware problems always seem to be about tom mounts.Past and present,i think it will always be a mystery on how to hang a tom or two...properly.Tama seem to have a grasp on it,yet you still see players putting the single tom on a snare stand.The hardware was always the weak part of the old time kits,but you have to admit the new stuff is quite sturdy.Those old Rogers swan leg cymbal stands were a stroke of geniusYes Sir

[O-Lugs]

Well a new Honda Civic functions better than an old Corvette Stingray, but that doesn't mean that the Corvette is not "quality stuff". I would still prefer driving the ill-handling, gas-inefficient, poor braking Corvette in a nice, polite manner than I would driving the new Honda Civic without a worry.

Same thing holds true for Rogers Swiv-O-Matic hardware. When it came out, it was a new idea -it seemed (and was) more functional at the time. The collet things were initially machined and of very high quality and they also reflected the style of the time in which they were created -they were "futuristic" in both function and appearance and they helped to differentiate Rogers from the remaining "Big Four" manufacturers -much the same way that the Big Four car manufacturers (Ford, Chevrolet, Pontiac and Dodge) used to approach building cars. Once things like aerodynamics were studied in regards to the way car bodies were designed, the fins and rocket-shaped bumpers that had been a major part of the individual style, disappeared. All of the differentiating factors began to melt into each other in favor of a more unified look and design across the board. As a result, the cars of today run better and more efficiently, but they lack a clearly individualized identity. After all, most of them are made from parts that come from the same places...built by robots and made to suit the needs of higher-profit manufacturing.

I believe the same to be true in relation to vintage drum gear verses new gear and it is my personal belief that the "quality" of an object doesn't always have to pertain to how much more abuse it can hold up to. Rogers Swiv-O-Matic may not have been perfect, but it certainly wasn't low-quality.flowers2

[sabshga]

Old drums, new hardware. I grew up using pliers to get that stuff tight enough or if worse came to worse, getting leverage on a wing nut with two drum sticks pinched together between clenched fists. My shoulders hurt from reaching for a tom on a rail consolette I could not get high enough and a floor tom on legs couldn't go high enough for where I naturally wanted it. That bass drum mounted cymbal arm would invariably fall over.

Today I've got everything on Pearl arms with the Pearl system no holes mounts. I use stands for a few drums or a racks for a lot of drums. I relive the glory days with the sound of the drums, not the flimsiness of the hardware.

That said, the Swivo-stuff looks very cool and seems like the very best in its time period. I started with a '65 Gretsch kit and the hardware was lame compared to that.

Best,

Gary
Dix HIlls, NY

[The Ploughman]

Granted the fullerton 9/72, and even before, swivo collets and tighteners sucked major butt, they were weak, however the Cleveland/Dayton era parts of the same stripe were top of the line then, and on the three sets I own equipped with that hardware, they continue to serve like new.

The first set I ever played on in 1975 was a 68 Rogers Blue Glass Glitter 4 piece, 20-12-14 with matching Tower 5x14 Snare drum. I fell in love. In 1979, I bought my first drumset, a barely used, 1977 Rogers Big R set in 24-13-14-15-18 sizes in Silver Metallic, with 5x14 COB Dynasonic. A few years ago I sold the 14 and 15, picked up a matching 16x16 with a close range serial number, and still have that set today.
Memrilock, or Swivo-matic, take your choice, Rogers was the innovator in drum hardware. And Pearl owes much of its success to the design they copied from Rogers.
I have a two 60s sets of Rogers, (with which I use Swan Leg Cymbal Stands), two memrilock era kits (with which I use DW 9000 series stands), and the XP8 kit I resurrected with Swivo hardware. Nine Dynasonic drums including three 10 ply maple versions from the USA Big R era.

I would easily choose any of the Rogers kits, over the 8,000 dollar Ayotte Custom kit I own, any time, any where, any venue where it would be reasonable to bring them. And the reason is not to preserve the Ayotte set.

And I am an old ****.

[Mike T]

wow...with all due respect, I love Rogers, but their Swivo hardware was complete crap and I think we are a bunch of old men trying to relive childhood days to even think that crap was durable and even functional. The design of having a couple little cheesy set screws hold a 10 pound tom in place while getting wailed on...doesn't bode well at all. It was, and is not sturdy stuff. Oh sure, its cool hitting your ride tom and watching it bounce, but puleeeaze....nothing like snapping off a set screw vs not tightening tight enough and watching your tom collapse in the middle of a fill. I think we get caught up in the 'glory days' and fail to be real. The whole collet thing and good Lord, I remember struggling as a kid trying to loosen that crap all the time. The palm of my hand felt like someone hit it with a ball peen hammer after wrestling with swivo stuff. Then the ball would get pitted where the screws tightened.....So, if you want to mount those shells on a snare drum stand, that's one thing....hook it up to a wire hanger....I'll pass.

No offense but you are really speaking of something that sounds like you never owned or played any Rogers swivelmatic's, which i have for almost 42 years i have have gigged them drug them across the country in trailers greyhound busses,trains and airplanes and never have i broke a set screw or had a tom or anything collapse while i was playing and i will tell you i hit hard...the only piece of Rogers equipment i ever had a issue with was their foot pedals,never liked them still don't. I use Ludwig speed kings it has nothing to due with nostalgia,it has to due with sound and quality,and toughness...

You tell me what hardware is better today? what a rack? FFS they look stupid i am a drummer not a brick layer on a scafel...it is a useless argument to try and tell a drummer or guitar player that what he likes is crap,but i will put to test anything made by Rogers between 1959 and 1970 against anything you can find today..

BTW i loath suspension systems i hate stuff that moves when i hit it. mine don't and even if they were a brand new company i would like them ..of course this is all my opinion and i mean no offense to anyone we all like what we like .. :)

PS Ploughman great looking set with the swivo harware they look just like clevlands and i would kill to have two of those cymbals stands the swivo internal ones they work great...

[wayne]

Good argument,better debate,excellent feed back!!

[The Ploughman]

I got the cymbal stands when I bought this kit on ebay last year. 20-12-16. Red Wine Ripple, Clevelands, 1964ish. The Dynasonic is a Seven Line from 65 or 66.

[O-Lugs]

Gorgeous Drums!!!!

[Pounder]

wow...with all due respect, I love Rogers, but their Swivo hardware was complete crap and I think we are a bunch of old men trying to relive childhood days to even think that crap was durable and even functional. The design of having a couple little cheesy set screws hold a 10 pound tom in place while getting wailed on...doesn't bode well at all. It was, and is not sturdy stuff. Oh sure, its cool hitting your ride tom and watching it bounce, but puleeeaze....nothing like snapping off a set screw vs not tightening tight enough and watching your tom collapse in the middle of a fill. I think we get caught up in the 'glory days' and fail to be real. The whole collet thing and good Lord, I remember struggling as a kid trying to loosen that crap all the time. The palm of my hand felt like someone hit it with a ball peen hammer after wrestling with swivo stuff. Then the ball would get pitted where the screws tightened.....So, if you want to mount those shells on a snare drum stand, that's one thing....hook it up to a wire hanger....I'll pass.
Tell us what you really think!

[Webmaster]

Think we have problems, look at the guys in the early 1900's.

Here is an early suspended snare drum system from 1898.

Click Here (http://www.vintagesnaredrums.com/patents_bower.html)

I have not added much to the discussion, just throwing in my 2 cents
of humor. x-mas2 (It's cold in Chicago!)

David

[bill young]

... it has nothing to due with nostalgia,it has to due with sound and quality,and toughness...

You tell me what hardware is better today? what a rack? FFS they look stupid i am a drummer not a brick layer on a scafel...

I look at this analogy from the point of athletics and anything else that has evolved over time. For example, back in the early years of football, players wore very little protection....maybe a little leather, jock-strap for a helmet or so. As the game progressed and guy grew bigger and stronger, those cheesy helmets were no longer enough to protect. Soon, they became full face masks and harder material etc.....

Now relate this to the evolution of music...from what was, to what is. Music is no longer light polka - boom-tat boom-tat boom-tat-tat-tat or a light big band swing. I'm even thinking of the traditional grip on the sticks with a pair of 7a's to the double fisted barbaric slamming with tree clubs. As the style and energy of the music evolved, so too did equipment drummers and other musicians, for that matter, used.

I'm surely not knocking the nostalgic aspect of 'collecting' vintage gear, but to argue in its defense, 'quality and toughness' and to be so bold as to contend that it is better than todays stuff, is a little off the mark. Guys that were a part of the ever changing and evolving music scene moved away from the 'flimsier' swivo stuff, in favor of more reliable, durable, and tougher hardware. I have an inkling that Bonham would have ripped swivo spurs off a bass drum before he hit beat one of measure 12. To me, quality is relative to what you are using something for and comparing it to. To play your typical 'bar gig'.....even I'd be breaking swivo stuff and I don't play all that hard.

So in sum, I beg to differ that most of this debate (and yeah I love to debate anyway) is in the name of nostalgia....leave quality and durability at home....unless and only unless....you want to compare the stuff to the stuff during that era. To todays hardware, it cannot compare period!

[sabshga]

Rack systems? Love em. I can put more stuff on them with less stands. I can alter the set up any time I want. Two toms, 3 (ususally) , 4, 5? Cowbell in just the right place. Couple of splashes. A picture of my mother. Whatever. It is unbelievably versatile. Set up is a breeze and a smaller foot print than using stands. Look like a bricklayer? Yea, that's what I look like. I use stands sometimes too but only if I'm going simple in a really tight space, 4 piece and 2 maybe 3 cymbals.

Suspension systems? If my drums move, I don't notice it. It's the only way I can think of having a modern set up with old drums without putting holes in them. Tama Air Ride for the snare? Don't knock it until you've tried it, the snare is definitely more resonant. It's a pleasure.

[Mike T]

I look at this analogy from the point of athletics and anything else that has evolved over time. For example, back in the early years of football, players wore very little protection....maybe a little leather, jock-strap for a helmet or so. As the game progressed and guy grew bigger and stronger, those cheesy helmets were no longer enough to protect. Soon, they became full face masks and harder material etc.....

Now relate this to the evolution of music...from what was, to what is. Music is no longer light polka - boom-tat boom-tat boom-tat-tat-tat or a light big band swing. I'm even thinking of the traditional grip on the sticks with a pair of 7a's to the double fisted barbaric slamming with tree clubs. As the style and energy of the music evolved, so too did equipment drummers and other musicians, for that matter, used.

I'm surely not knocking the nostalgic aspect of 'collecting' vintage gear, but to argue in its defense, 'quality and toughness' and to be so bold as to contend that it is better than todays stuff, is a little off the mark. Guys that were a part of the ever changing and evolving music scene moved away from the 'flimsier' swivo stuff, in favor of more reliable, durable, and tougher hardware. I have an inkling that Bonham would have ripped swivo spurs off a bass drum before he hit beat one of measure 12. To me, quality is relative to what you are using something for and comparing it to. To play your typical 'bar gig'.....even I'd be breaking swivo stuff and I don't play all that hard.

So in sum, I beg to differ that most of this debate (and yeah I love to debate anyway) is in the name of nostalgia....leave quality and durability at home....unless and only unless....you want to compare the stuff to the stuff during that era. To todays hardware, it cannot compare period!

Ok i will agree with everything you say if you can just tell me how and why my swivo stuff does not work for the last 42 years? When i say hardware i am talking about tom holders not cymbal stands or snare stand etc,i will be the first to admit they make better ones now...i have sat at a pearl set and tried for 30 min to get the toms set right between two bass drums and could not get them where i wanted...DW stuff? i watched ginger baker at madison square garden last year every time he hit the floor toms they bounced for 5 min ,no thanks... the key to any hardware in my book is knowing how it works..and keeping it working correctly.

If you want swivo stuff to work correctly you have to clean it and keep the threads coated with a lubricant(i use vaseline) the collets are as smooth as butter and i do NOT have to over tighten them because they close down correctly... If you want the ball joints to hold ,then tighten one screw up against the wall then the other up against that and if the cups on the set screws get a bit dull recup them that is how they work...If you want pictures i will gladly show you what i mean.. anyway fun discussion ,i am still a swivo man.. peace play on..band2 D' Drummer

[O-Lugs]

One quick point regarding the quality and durability of vintage gear...

The mere fact that it has lasted for 30, 40, 50 years or more and continues to function perfectly, is testament to not only its quality, but also to its durabilty. Yes Sir

I wonder if all of today's Taiwanese-built equipment will endure as well over a similar period of time. In any case, I can see no indication of any of my vintage gear breaking down anytime soon. Granted, I pack up and haul all my gear carefully. I respect my instruments and understand how they work. I think that philosophy could apply to any instrument's longevity. For example well-made basses and violins have lasted for hundreds of years when in the care of responsible owners....and those instruments seem quite delicate in comparison to most drums/drum hardware.Violin

[bill young]

One quick point regarding the quality and durability of vintage gear...

The mere fact that it has lasted for 30, 40, 50 years or more and continues to function perfectly, is testament to not only its quality, but also to its durabilty.

Beg to differ! It means you have taken great care of it, never used it much (like that old Corvette that sits covered in the garage), or rode it easily. It has very little to do with durability. I could have bought a ford Pinto or AMC Pacer....brand new off the lot, left the sticker on it and emptied the tanks and stored it and it would have been "Durable" and "Quality" - not even close.

There is a perfectly good explanation of why swivo stuff goes for a good price on ebay - even the broken stuff. You simply do not find it around much anymore. Not cuz people are hording it. Rather it has hit landfills years ago. The reason it commands a high dollar is not the fact that it is durable or quality. It is the fact that people like us want to use our old Rogers kits and need replacement coat hangers to hold the stuff and mount the items. Has ZERO to do with durability, quality, and let me throw in....ease of use.

[O-Lugs]

If you know how to work on Corvettes and you know how to drive, then you shouldn't have any problems maintaining them.

Sure, I have taken good care of my gear. That's a lesson I got from my parents when I was a kid -"Take care of your things!" But, I, too watched Keith Moon destroy brand-new drums in short order...and I thought it looked cool and there was a part of me that wanted to act like that...but, in the end, I liked my drums too much! What can I say? I was the type of kid who was proud of my drums and I spent lots of time playing them and adjusting them...cleaning them...changing out the heads...tearing them down and packing them up -always carefully wrapping up the stands in towels and using liners with my old Fibre Cases (which I also still have and use to this day). If you could see my scrapbook, you would see the same drums...gig-after-gig-after-gig. You would see me growing up behind those drums...and I can show you how I have changed and gotten worn out...but also show you that the drums have hardly aged (it seems).

I ended up selling off the greater portion of my Rogers MemriLoc Big R "Ultra Power Seven" kit (double bass drums! -lol!) about ten years ago. They were in excellent to mint condition -after about 25 years of touring. They sold right away....and then about 5 years after I sold them, I saw them again at another music store -for sale again. They were beat-to-heck! It was really sad.

I have been playing vintage gear since before it was considered vintage gear!

One of the problematic things about our society today is that people have become conditioned to replace things instead of maintaining things. This attitude bodes well for manufacturing. The idea of maintaining vintage gear exists because drummers know that vintage-quality gear will never be produced by modern manufacturing methods -as it would be too expensive.

I can appreciate certain functional improvements with modern designs...but I also see how cheaply it is made.Soap Box :D

[Bebop]

Bill,
No offense but I think you are looking at this topic with a very pessimistic (sp?) additude. There are lots of good working pieces of swivo hardware that ARE durable and work well. Taking good care of something does matter but if you dont take care of that rack system then its going to break just like the swivo hardware right? IF you take care of that swivo hardware its going to work fine for, well not forever but for awhile. At least 40 years as many of them have. Your RIMS mounts and rack systems only really came along as a marketing "scam." Hardware worked and thats all it needed to do but if you go into how a shell will get more resonance by not drilling holes into it arnt you going to be looked at as THE Innovative company? In my opinon, yes you are and that means sales go UP. Seriousily are 4 little holes or one bigger one going to really matter? Drilling shells for mounting hardware had been working for 60-80 years and the drums sounded good! so why change? So I guess what I am trying to say is anything works if you take care of it and swivo hardware was innovative and is still working 40 years later.

[Bebop]

It is the fact that people like us want to use our old Rogers kits and need replacement coat hangers to hold the stuff and mount the items. Has ZERO to do with durability, quality, and let me throw in....ease of use.
Well I have heard of microwaving radio kings and putting cymbals in the dishwasher but I have NEVER heard of using coat hangers to mount a tom. Thats just silly. :D Maybe you sold to many clothes and had a wierd idea but I have never seen anyone else use coat hangers. (Maybe we should talk to 1960's Rogers employees for details? Maybe they were 3/4" diameter COS coat hangers?) I would hang my toms on COS coat hangers Party
Also ease of use is another argument. Is it that easy to set up a rack system and than put all those dang clamps and stands and stuff on them or is it easier to set up cymbal stands and slide a tom on the coat hanger?
Considering the fact that, as O-Lugs stated, swivo has stood up for at least 40 years of damage THAT makes it durable. Also that makes it a QUALITY piece of coat hanger right?

[The Ploughman]

Heh, I got a new rack today................

[wayne]

MICROWAVING RADIO KINGS??????....WHAT THE BLAZES FOR????Excited
??

[scovit]

The hardware is irrelevant, although some people like quick and easy setups, even back in the Vintage time, Ludwig Cymbal stands were light pretty sturdy and easy to set up.

The point is the sound is what makes vintage drums so special and the look of the drums at least to me.

I have fine new stuff but there's that sound, the tone from that era that is so special.....and not because many of us on this forum lived it.......

Those companies that are around today have tried to ressurect and duplicate that sound. Take a look at Ludwig's web site and how they are promting the fab four kit....or Slingerland who is trying to promote the re-creation of Radio King.......or what Yamaha intends to do with the "New Rogers"......good luck with that!!!!!

...and its not just in drums. There was real musical and craftsmanship creativity and genius back then.

Some of the hardware today I must admit is pretty cool although you might need an entire road crew to set it up, but honestly the sound of the drums to me falls miserably short for most of the manufacturers.



To me vintage is vintage because it sounds great and plays great!

[wayne]

scovit...you make some good points but "falls miserably short" is where i disagree.I own a 50,s Sling and a 70 Sonor kit that are so sweet sounding BUT i,VE also heard some new drums that sound quite good.Im not talking about mic,d situations,just plain old off the floor acoustically.Remember these high end drums today are tomorrows Vintage gear,which makes my stuff antiques if its still together in 25 years

[scovit]

Wayne....I agree w/ your chronological perpective and you are right. Many of today's drums will be tomorrow's vintage drums. My statement was made in general as I also agree that there are some great sounding "new" drums out there, though not as many as one would hope for and curiously, not really, they carry the premium price tag. Rogers were expensive in their time.

I would like to point out 2 specific examples of my perspective though.

Let's take the time tested infamous Ludwig Supraphonic Snare Drum no longer manufacturing with COB. Why? Only the guy upstairs knows. Now I know they stopped producing this great sounding configuration in the 60's, in this configuration it is a drum that has a sound in the same class as the other greats of the time.

Just for s__ts and giggles, I recently purchased a new Supraphonic just because I wanted to see how the current sound would be. Cute little rubber gaskets on the tension rods as a marker for tuning, nylon washers that supoosedly make it easier to provide tension, nice looking finish w/ snares made in Taiwan. It's now on E-Bay being sold by me. Why? I could not get it to even sound remotely close to the following drums, Rogers DynaSonic, PowerTone 60's Radio King, CF Martin Fibes. Although, these drums all have a distinctive sound or tone, none of them sound lifeless. That drum sounded like a dud. I even went as far as to try different top and bottom heads & PureSound Snares to eliminate the dull lifeless sound eminating from that new shell. I went into a local Guitar Center just to see if I had the only bad sounding Supraphonic. It was exactly the same. I know I can get a brass shell supraphonic but that is not the point. The drum I have has be arguably called the standard......

To qualify, I have heard much better vintage Supraphonics with with the infamous Ludalloy.

Here's another example. I attach the picture of two Remo drum heads, a late 1960's Ambassador drum head (a true standard btw) and the currently produced version of the same. You can't believe the difference when placed on the same exact drum with the same tension specs. Even altering the tension to compensate does nothing.

Listen, I don't care what type of music you play or listen to, there is a deep difference in many of today's products as opposed to yesterday's. By the way, I inquired about whether Remo changed their mfg process and it turns out that they have, probably in response to Evans increase in market share and also environmental concerns. The latter I was told by an old time drum shop owner.

I am sure we can all come up with many other examples. You could conceivably try my drum head example if you have some good old ones lying around.

Yes, there is some good stuff out there granted.....but it is not as much or what it should be.

Anyway, just my thoughts for what its worth......

[Stoli]

Hey Ploughman, I'm the first to say it.... NICE RACK!Funny Post

[bill young]

C'mon guys...I don't recall knocking the SOUND of vintage drums or Rogers for that matter....That is a totally different issue altogether. And of course, it stands to reason that if you take care of stuff, it lasts longer.....But be real...go look on 'the bay' and look at all the cracked 'bread and butter lugs' - just crappily designed and engineered and there is mucho other hardware from 'the day' that sucks butt just as bad. Some stuff is way more durable than others and the swivo stuff IS NOT durable PERIOD...COOL....but not durable (Thats without looking up Websters def of Durable).

Keep the sound out of this argument - I never once made any contention about the sound.

[Mike T]

Ok Bill , lets get to this , lugs have about as much to do with swivomatic hardware as sound...we have been discussing the tom mounting system not the lugs. Bread and butter lugs were made up until 1963,they were made from drawn brass,a poor choice yes but it chromed better and everyone knows COB dynasonics hold chrome better than Ludaloy ...Now that has nothing at all to do with the tom mounting system . In Fact most all of the mounting plates survive today it is the collets that were the culprit,the early machined ones lasted longer but i have never broke a cast one simple because i do not have to use pliers to get them to work. what people fail to admit is that they took poor care of them and never cleaned the threads or in between the cuts on the threaded part,all of which leads up to build up of crud that keeps them from closing causing you to have to close them harder and harder ..

Take your car and do the same thing you will have the same results ..the truth is the 3/8ths hex rod is very very strong you can not take a 10 inch piece in your hands and bend it ,neither will you bend it through normal use,i have never seen a piece of it break..I have seen the teeth on the ratchet system of almost every other drum manufacturer wear out or break. the only thing i have ever seen break on swivomatic hardware was the collet arms and again read above to see why... mine to this day work as smooth as butter and you can tighten or loosen them with one hand..

Notice this is one of my tom holders it is 37 years old it is scratched beat up a bit but look at the collet no plier marks here and look at the nose of the collet it is not plugged up...and it still works perfectly!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Magwa/DSC02514Medium.jpg

[Bebop]

C'mon guys...I don't recall knocking the SOUND of vintage drums or Rogers for that matter....That is a totally different issue altogether. And of course, it stands to reason that if you take care of stuff, it lasts longer.....But be real...go look on 'the bay' and look at all the cracked 'bread and butter lugs' - just crappily designed and engineered and there is mucho other hardware from 'the day' that sucks butt just as bad. Some stuff is way more durable than others and the swivo stuff IS NOT durable PERIOD...COOL....but not durable (Thats without looking up Websters def of Durable).

Keep the sound out of this argument - I never once made any contention about the sound.

Bill you keep saying the same stuff over and over again without backing it up!
Swivo stuff breaks. Yes thats true but doesnt everything if its not looked after?
There are lots of pieces of swivo hardware that is in good condition and it shows its durable after 50 or so years of abuse. B&B lugs were bad. They were COB and thats just bad for lugs. But we are talking about he Swivos and they work and they stand up to a bit of abuse therefor making them somewhat durable. Try backing up your points next time.

[Webmaster]

Good topic guys and thanks for keeping things on a respectible level!

I think bill_young has his mind made up and there is no changing that.

I think in general we all have something we will stand by until our final hours. For me I vowed never to be an At&t customer again and that was
6 years ago.

Well, things change and I went back to At&t.

I think Bill is set on his dislike for the hardware and that will not change, if however Bill finds a garage full of Rogers hardware I hope he gives it to me so I can sell it to all of the people that still like it.

Other then that to him it sucks and to you it does not.....

I personally have limited experience with Rogers hardware so I can't say much for it or against it.
I can't stand the Magnum Slingerland hardware!!!!!! Eye Ball

OK, I finally came out of the closet.

David

[Mike T]

Welcome to the real world David.. LOL yes everyone is to be commended for keeping this civil and fun!... LoLoLoLo flowers2 Cool

[bill young]

Bill you keep saying the same stuff over and over again without backing it up!
Swivo stuff breaks. Yes thats true but doesnt everything if its not looked after?
There are lots of pieces of swivo hardware that is in good condition and it shows its durable after 50 or so years of abuse. B&B lugs were bad. They were COB and thats just bad for lugs. But we are talking about he Swivos and they work and they stand up to a bit of abuse therefor making them somewhat durable. Try backing up your points next time.

Hmmm - yes I get repetitive, as it seems I may have to 'dummy down' my posts for some people. First off, I must repeat my contention after each 'assault' because I try to stay with my idea that ROGERS HARDWARE IS NOT AS DURABLE AS WE LET ON.....that has been my contention from the start. I used an example of mounting toms on their cheesy tom posts etc....the discussion ultimately steered that I 'said' or appeared to imply that the sound was lousy (GET THIS GUYS) WHEN IN FACT, I DID NOT. So yes, I feel I need to constantly re-focus all those with ADD, or ADHD, back to my original contention.

Whoever posted the pic of the old collet....big deal. I can actually photo one even nicer looking....problem is, I have 3 right now that I can photo that are complete junk, as well.

How do you suggest I back it up? Many issues are supply and demand. You simply do not find much of this stuff around anymore. If it has anything to do with experiences like mine, it is broken and buried by now.

Tama made the best hardware. The titan stuff of the early 80's could be dropped from an airplane and still function perfectly. Who wants to lug this stuff around though? Each stand weighs in at 35lbs ea. But they are still the front-runners in bass pedals and hat stands, and their higher end kits aren't too bad either......

oh and just for the record....I mainly play Roland now.....sound is not an issue. I have a programmer that can model any sound known to man. You want the Rogers sound? You got it AND....I don't have to worry about my tom collapsing or my palm bleeding from a collet.

[The Ploughman]

I must suck ass as a player, Ive never gotten a tom mount to collapse on me, or hit through a snare head, or busted the batter on a bass drum, and I dont have a stack of NFG Cymbals in a corner somewhere all with cracks on them.


Cleveland, 1964, Excellent Condition. ............
Ayotte Custom makes some nice looking mounts.
I just wanted to post a Collet pic.

[bill young]

I must suck ass as a player, Ive never gotten a tom mount to collapse on me, or hit through a snare head, or busted the batter on a bass drum, and I dont have a stack of NFG Cymbals in a corner somewhere all with cracks on them.


ok ok...I'm bowing out of this. You guys are just like my wife. This has been twisted way beyond my original contention - way to go ploughman. Did I question anyone's ability to play? I feel like I'm dealing with a fifth grader and I need to diagram my points for you. Congrats on not ever breaking anything and with your line of reasoning....you must be the best drummer ever.

[O-Lugs]

Man, don't bow out after only 8 posts!

Let's talk about Rogers Swiv-O-Matic not being in demand anymore. Actually, I would bet that if a legitimate version of Swiv-O-Matic hardware were to be made today, it would be in demand.

Tama hardware is nice and sturdy -durable. But, as you mentioned, it is also very heavy. I own a whole bunch of modern Tama stands and an array of IC pedals and I am very happy with those...but, again, they are very heavy. Being heavier is not always a good thing.

I think Rogers Swiv-O-Matic was an extremely cool-looking design that boded well for the overall Rogers look and vibe. After all, Rogers didn't shut down because they were building things that weren't durable enough. In fact, they shut down because they couldn't afford to continue their high-quality designs and also be able to compete with the cheaper import competition. Eventually they had to sell out -as did all the great American drum companies...because they couldn't afford to stay in business as far as the way that business had been done previously.

But anyone who knows can tell you that those Rogers Swiv-O-Matic collets were excellent pieces of machined-goods and were of the highest-quality in the drum industry.

I would agree that Ebay is NOW full of broken and second-rate pieces of vintage gear.... but not because the quality is poor, rather because most of the really nice examples were sold years ago. The vintage drum collectible world is finite. Eventually, with all the collectors out there, the good stuff will be collected...and that's what's happened. What remains are the second-rate items -the broken items that nobody would have even believed could be sold! I've seen all that junk, too...and even the junk sells! Go figure! Occasionally, someone thins out their collection and a few nice clean examples show up -for top dollar. Everybody knows what's out there now and there are no really great deals left -except maybe once in a blue moon.

If durabilty is the only criteria for which to judge the worthiness of a drum component, then maybe the Swiv-O stuff would not beat the Tama Titan for "dropped out of a plane" style durability. If a Swiv-O-Matic collet were to be dropped out of a plane and broke, it wouldn't shock anybody. After all, that's not a good way to test drum hardware.

Is a Steinway a less durable piano if someone like Jerry Lee Lewis jumps up on the keyboard and starts stomping away?

Is a 1962 Fender Stratocaster more or less durable than a 2007 Japanese copy of a 1962 Strat? What if we were talking about "in the hands of Pete Townsend or Jimi Hendrix"?

It really is a matter of learning how to take care of things and then following through with taking care of them. Sometimes, the durabilty of an item is tested beyond its intended use -as in the aforementioned rock-star examples. Does Fender get the blame or does Hendrix? See what I mean? In other words, when the vintage items we are discussing were new, there wasn't yet a demand for them to have to hold up to the over-the-top theatrics of a Keith Moon. Drummers like that created a new need for heavier and more durable equipment so that the drums used in those applications would hold up better. There is no need for an acoustic jazz drummer to have Tama Titan stands. That would be overkill in that application.

So, durability of the Swiv-O stuff was just fine for most of the drummers who played upon them...as were Ludwigs...as were Slingerlands..as were Gretsch. But, when drums started to become "props" for theatrical drummers, the demands for a certain kind of durabilty arose. That's when things started to switch to meet the new demands of the day...Rogers with the MemriLoc stuff, Ludwig with their Modular stuff. It was bigger, stronger, more massive and possibly more durable...and yet...those particular items, as durable as they might have been, did not endure.

I wonder if Tama Titan stands and Iron Cobra pedals (as durable as they are) will hold the same kind of value over time that the Swiv-O-Matic stuff has held. Something tell sme they won't...but I could be wrong.Toilet

[The Ploughman]

My 1977 Rogers Big R Memrilock in Silver Metallic. Ive had this since Nov. 79. The wrap has the issues inherant to this wrap, age checking. Eventually, I will have it recovered. Maybe Ice Blue WMP. My hardware, likewise, issues inherant to later Rogers Chrome Plating. I have some very minor pitting on the lugs, my center post and tom mounts are however, in excellent condition. I use DW 9000 series stands, and Tama IC pedals. But over all, the kit is in excellent shape. Because I cared for it. I kept it cased. I kept it clean. I kept the bottom heads on, even though the only decent pic i have of the set back then, shows the bottom hardware off (it was being cleaned). Point is, with the coming of ebay, in the last 10 years, ive touched a lot of vintage and old and used drum equipment.
Many people dont take care of their gear. They dont clean, they dont concern themselves with its upkeep, and they dont respect it in its use.
How many posts have we all seen in this forum and others by some dumb ass kid bragging about his latest cymbal crack, while agonizing over the amount its going to cost him to replace it, all the while damning the manufacturer for shoddy materials. How many vintage kits have you seen drilled for some stupid ass pearl pipe mount? That cheesy two pipe bd mount? And ive seen that cheesey mount on Masters sets. Ill never buy pearl just for that.
My two vintage 60s Rogers sets are within the scope of pristine. So is the XP8 set with 60s dressings. And so are the Memrilock Big R sets. And they will be taken care of as long as I have them.

[Mike T]

ok ok...I'm bowing out of this. You guys are just like my wife. This has been twisted way beyond my original contention - way to go ploughman. Did I question anyone's ability to play? I feel like I'm dealing with a fifth grader and I need to diagram my points for you. Congrats on not ever breaking anything and with your line of reasoning....you must be the best drummer ever.

Hey man don't run off you have been given many examples of how swivo stuff not only work but how it lasts and these examples have been backed up by pictures and facts..you have presented nothing but talk.... you say it is crap junk but you offer nothing more than words..i would love to hear from you how it is junk why does it not work.

Now no one can make any one else like anything that is a fact and i am not trying to convert you to swivo stuff but on the other hand i am not going to just sit here while you call good stuff junk,unless you can convince me with some FACTS!

My kit is not pristine but it is 100% complete and unaltered i have all the hardware pedals etc and everything works correctly and how it was intended to work how can i not be happy with it ..

I now use XYZ cymbal stands why? because they are tougher and work better than my Rogers stands and i want to preserve my old stands..the cymbal stands and foot pedals are all i replace i still use the hi hat and all drums and hardware other than cymbal stands and foot pedals... i use a Pearl Hi hat to bass drum mount why? cause it is better than the rogers one same for my cowbell holder BUT the swivo stuff is pure genius and in my book the best i have ever used...

[Bebop]

Hey man don't run off you have been given many examples of how swivo stuff not only work but how it lasts and these examples have been backed up by pictures and facts..you have presented nothing but talk.... you say it is crap junk but you offer nothing more than words..i would love to hear from you how it is junk why does it not work.

Exactly. I wasnt trying to make you feel unwelcome or anything,
thats the last thing I would want to do, but you called swivo hardware
coat hangers and such and just had to argue. :-)

[The Ploughman]

I think every Rogers player will readily admit the inherant problems with the hardware from any era. Be that B&B lugs, Swivo hardware from Cleveland, Dayton, or Fullerton, and most definitely with the drums themselves from any era. I purchased Swivo Cleveland era parts for my green set because of their durability, (and they look cool). I did not buy Fullerton era parts for the same reason, they werent as durable. The cleveland era parts I have, are in excellent or better shape, the price I paid for them was high, and I had to OUTBID other people who wanted them for the same reason.... They were in excellent shape. There are a score of drumwreckers on ebay, selling every part imaginable. Parts in nice shape, ......sell for big money.
When you have a dozen people (just to pick a number) who say a particular hardware group or part is crap, maybe they should be listened to. But when you have ten dozen other people who will say the same era hardware is not crap, maybe its time to consider the source of the complaint.
An item will only be durable as long as its used within the parameters for which it is entended.
it seems to me the source of this contention might be abuse. I dont think any drum manufacturer covers abuse in their warranties. Maybe I missed it somewhere.

[sabshga]

Rogers historians: Were 22" bass drums made in Cleveland or Dayton? If so, are they hard to find? Anyone interested in trading a 22 for 20 silver sparkle Cleveland?

Gary

Dix Hills, NY

[Antipodes]

As this thread seems to have turned into a Rogers free-for-all I'm curious to know why when every other U.S. drum manufacturer was doing lacquered natural wood finishes that Rogers opted for laminate wraps imitating lacquered wood.

That one always stuck in my craw and seemed at odds with their high quality image.

Have a feeling it as a question without an answer but if anyone has some input would be nice to hear it.

DR

[Mike T]

well that is a good question now as i remember the butcherblock type finishes were on the drums made later at fullerton like 1975 or later and who at that time in the US was making drums with a natural laquered finish?? i have no clue....i thought the laquered drums came after the 80's...but i amy be tottaly wrong ...good question...anyway i always hated the laquered finishes..pearl and sparkles were all i ever cared for ..now almost no company makes them . lol

[Antipodes]

Seventies lacquered finishes - Ludwig, Gretsch from memory, Camco, pretty sure Slingerland.

Am not a Rogers guy as such. The thought just occurred to me and, well, this is the only place I could imagine anyone would know. But I know what you mean about wraps - have a bit of an on again/off again thing about lacquered drums.

D

[Mike T]

yeah the laquered finishes just seem lifeless to me under lights,a WMP or silver sparkle just seem to be alive when under lights...maybe i am wierd .. :)Excited

[Super B]

yeah the laquered finishes just seem lifeless to me under lights,a WMP or silver sparkle just seem to be alive when under lights...maybe i am wierd .. :)Excited

I think you hit the nail on the head, WMP kits just look fantastic on stage. I have a rewrapped Ludwig in black oyster pearl that I just stare at all the time...in my basement! Is it nostalgia for a simpler time? I don't know, but, I always feel good when I see an old kit with the those classic wraps!

I didn't want to jump in on the Rogers hardware debate, but...
I have a 37 year old Rogers set, that I still use the Swivomatic tom arm, and it works great! It's my favorite kit right now...

[musicbybj]

[QUOTE=bill young]wow...with all due respect, I love Rogers, but their Swivo hardware was complete crap QUOTE]

Sorry, but I haven't been around for a while and I just had to jump in on this!

Thanks Bill for saying what a lot of us have been thinking since the first time one of those damn collet noses stuck and you bruised the hell out of your hand trying to loosen it. I have played the same Rogers set and Dyna since 1964 and I take good care of them and keep the swivo's lubed and clean. They get played a lot on gigs and in the studio. I've been a professional musician for over 40 years and still gig quite a bit. After my last swivo cymbal stand broke (Rogers didn't put enough threads on the clamp and they always stripped eventually) I bought a complete set of Memri Locs and have been using them for about thirty years with NO problems. I've had the baseball bat handles on the collet noses break off several times. The swivo cymbal tilters didn't work properly. In order to get any angle at all you had to lay the thing at a 90 dergee. There were a lot of problems with Swiv-o-matic. That's why memri loc was so important and it had it's problems (poor quality chrome finish). Today almost everyone uses memriloc.

Oh, and by the way IT'S NOT Swivelmatic. That just drives me nuts.

I love my Rogers drums and still have the SWIV-O-MATIC tom mounts and spurs because I don't want to drill the drums. I wouldn't give up my old Rogers drums for any DW ever made. My 64 Dyna (#28**) has given me 43 years of the best sounding snare ever made (after I really learned how to set it).

How much evidence do you want? I can give plenty more. Nasty attitude, man. This is a mans opinion not a war. Maybe anger management is in order.Kiss

Don't want to fight...we all love our Rogers!

Jack

[Mike T]

HMMMMMM well all i can say is when you let a piece of metal get the best of ya time to figure out why? So my question to you would be why was the collet stuck in the first place? If you had cleaned and lubed them like you said how could they stick? mine don't , not ever simply because i do not have to over tighten them ...

here is a tip for those that have problems with collets and their counterparts ...take the collet off and get the correct thread chaser and go over the plates with the thread chaser sometimes chrome gets in the threads and makes them tough to close properly, by doing this once every 5 years you too can have no hassle swivo fun.... IF YOU HAVE TO FORCE IT SOMTHING IS WRONG! :)

I have had clevland collets, dayton collets and now i have fullerton collets and i have never in 40 years broke one or had to use pliers, all i can tell ya is they work for me..and i agree with you i would not trade my Rogers drums for any DW set ..

[sticksandstones]

[QUOTE=. You guys are just like my wife. This has been twisted way beyond my original contention [/QUOTE]
LoLoLoLo Man , can I ever relate to that! Laughing H woo! I never had any problem with the collet, it was always the stinkin' set screws on the swivel. I know, I know- I over-tightened. Well, I probably under-tightened initially, then I over-tightened. Then I over-over-tightened. Then I---bought Ludwigs. BUT I STILL OWN A ROGERS SET!! I LOVE MY ROGERS SET!! The tom still falls once in a while, but I gently lift it back into place, carefully tighten the screws, kiss 'er and smack'errightinthemiddleofthehead!

[Mike T]

Ok here is a tip if you have a set screw that will not hold re cup it the ends of those set screws have a cup so that makes the perimeter sharp if you have over tighened for a while they get dull and actuly end up flat and usless that is the point most break them take em out put them in a vise andvery carefully drill the end out like a 32/nd of a inch you will have to have the right drill bit so you only recup the enside of the end..

[sticksandstones]

Mike T, that's an awesome tip! DOH It never occured to me to cup (or actually re-cup) the set screws- a perfect example of knowing how the hardware is designed to work and maintaining it for years of trouble-free enjoyment. The drill press (and bi-focals) made it much easier to center. Thanks man!

[Mike T]

always a pleasure to help someone with a problem, i am a tinkerer and i am a fanatic on matinence so i would take them apart and look at things and it is how i discovered that brand new they were cupped and that used ones were almost flat. LOL

[musicbybj]

always a pleasure to help someone with a problem, i am a tinkerer and i am a fanatic on matinence so i would take them apart and look at things and it is how i discovered that brand new they were cupped and that used ones were almost flat. LOL

Great tip...I will take all of my set screws out and check them and repair if needed!

Jackflowers2

[mattkinel]

The memory lock hardware was the downfall of the Rogers drum co. The swivomatic hardware, when it worked, was the best thing on the market. I think that the hardware manufacturing process wasnt regulated well, so the swivo stuff is pretty hit or miss. I have a swivo tom arm that is complete crap, and another one that could hold a bass drum to a bass drum. The swivo bass pedals are my second favorite pedals ever, second only to speedkings. If I wasnt afraid to break em they would be my favorite, I just cant afford to keep buying parts or new swivo pedals, so I only play my swivo pedal at home when im feeling light, happy, and very stress free, so theres no chance of any emotion adding to the weight of my already heavy foot.

[garyvf]

Ok folks I`ve read most of the posts so far,lots of different ideas.I`m 51 been playing since I was 8 got my first set of Rogers in about 71,I played them alot in high school and started gigging at that time.I to say the least tore them down and set them up truly hundreds of times.Never and I repeat never did I need to over tighten nor have to replace a single part,other than the leather strap on the swivomatic kick pedal.Played those for 15 years,got real stupid and traded for a set of laugh and I`ll find you a set of Simmons.Worst move of my life.Shortly after got a Londoner set Of XP8`s blue mist,memriloc,still gigging alot and never had any problems with that version.I must admit I play a bit hard especially early before putting mike on drums was the accepted norm.Took a few years off ond recently bought a set of Grestch Blackhawks,total Taiwan firewood.Located a 79 set of XP8`s on ebay and ended up with a super Londoner kit for $ 950.00,bought a nice dynasonic locally in great shape.All the memriloc hardware still functions the way it was designed.I have played Ludwigs,Sonor,Pearl Tamas.and a couple of electronic kits.Nothing IMO matches the sound,quality and the durability of the Rogers brand.The XP8`s are some of the best shells I`ve ever used,they will bury me before I sell this time.I currently gig using just three of the rack mount toms one on a memriloc stand using just one arm.I disagree that the memriloc takes anything away from the tone of these drums.Well so much for my opinion,this thread was so long had to throw my 2 cents worth in.Long live the Rogers die hards and by the way Ploughman no one should have that many nice Rogers kits wish I had kept all of mine,by the way the new XP8`s I have are also blue mist same as my earlier kit.Later guys rock on.



The Band Gary

[bamboo72]

Nice drums Ploughman! I am a Ludwig guy, and plan to delve into Rogers for my collection (probably a 60s kit.) I have always had a thing for the 79 big R Rogers...just never owned a kit. I remember seeing an Tobacco Sunburst "Ultra Power 8" set up in my local music store when I was 8 or so in 1980 and still to this day want one (even though I do not play that large of a kit!) I love those maple 8x14 Dynasonics too!! That is on my list!

[vircotto]

Errm.. what was the question again..?

The original poster must have ran away in terror after reading all this.

Crap is crap and you shouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

I've played a maple Big R set since the year ?76 and I love every piece of it, the set someone's trying to rip off the poor guy with has nothing to do with them, except the kind-of-similar badge. Don't they sell brand new "Leedy" sets as well for a buck and a half...?

Someone on this thread said he's "played vintage gear before they were considered vintage"... I say the only gear I could AFFORD back in '74 were vintage, and I couldn't wait to dump the old tubs and get me some shiny new ones instead.

If I'd only known what this leads into :)

Simo

[The Ploughman]

I couldnt even afford gear in 74.


I learned on a borrowed kit, albeit a very nice borrowed kit. So I had two years use of a 67 Rogers 4 piecer in blue glass glitter that belonged to my drum teacher. Then one day they were gone. It was another two years before I could afford to buy my own kit.
They were Rogers. Playing junk sucks.

[waltondrummer]

Old drums, new hardware. I grew up using pliers to get that stuff tight enough or if worse came to worse, getting leverage on a wing nut with two drum sticks pinched together between clenched fists. My shoulders hurt from reaching for a tom on a rail consolette I could not get high enough and a floor tom on legs couldn't go high enough for where I naturally wanted it. That bass drum mounted cymbal arm would invariably fall over.

Today I've got everything on Pearl arms with the Pearl system no holes mounts. I use stands for a few drums or a racks for a lot of drums. I relive the glory days with the sound of the drums, not the flimsiness of the hardware.

That said, the Swivo-stuff looks very cool and seems like the very best in its time period. I started with a '65 Gretsch kit and the hardware was lame compared to that.

Best,

Gary
Dix HIlls, NY




I'm new to vintage drums and can only dream to read about the experiences most here have lived...being born in '68 and only playing since my early 30's I have a great deal to learn. That being said and being I just purchased my first true set of "Vintage" American drums - the '79 Slingerlands - I have to agree with the above quote...I also am using RIMS w/Pearl hardware as much as I can get it to apply. For collector value and integrity I can see keeping the original stuff but for everyday use and Rock music at that I find that having the wonderful sound and integrity of the vintage drums with the solid/flexible more modern hardware is what works for me....my rack tom w/ RIMS and Pearl mounting hardware can take a beating and not flinch...the 15" suspended tom with the original Slingerland hardware quite often waves like a leaf in the wind. I certainly would not change the mounts or ruin the integrity of the vintage drums in any way and be able to live with it though...
Just my opinion...

[garyvf]

Drumgus:If you have $1800.00 to drop on a vintage Rogers kit,take some time and watch ebay or look regionally.The kit you show is not what you want.I agree with the others,they are not worth $ 250.00 IMO there are some great kits out there,like I said just take your time and you will be rewarded by a sound and quality beyond most drums from the last 45 years.Just thought I`d chime in.


Gary,in Omaha

[The Ploughman]

Theres been a few really nice kits on ebay lately. And ....... Search ROGERS on the SF Bay Area Craigslist under musical instruments. Theres a BDP Rogers in 20-12-14 with a COB Powertone thats really, really, HOT!!, that is, if you like those sizes. (its not mine.)

[chilipeppermaniac]

Theres been a few really nice kits on ebay lately. And ....... Search ROGERS on the SF Bay Area Craigslist under musical instruments. Theres a BDP Rogers in 20-12-14 with a COB Powertone thats really, really, HOT!!, that is, if you like those sizes. (its not mine.)


Look,,,,,,, I found my friend Plough.

Just came as a hunt for info. It may have been mentioned in this thread but at 2 am I am not reading all 75 pages.

I am curious about the swivo hardware differences through the eras from Cleveland to Dayton to Fullerton since I recently got some various era Rogers drums from each. The first ones I got were a Tophat setup minus bass and the toms are from the Cleve era with 2-12's and a 16 floor. The 12's have the Script logos in the orientation where if toms are set up right and left they are correctly facing front. The 16 has an extra mount I presume for cymbal arm. It appears without cleaning up the Hardware that it might be made with different metal (nickel vs chrome maybe?) and (machined vs cast) As Plough knows, I also got a B and B lug kickdrum Cleveland era, and we know the shortcomings of those lugs.

BIGGEST question as stated above is On the Holiday and Powertone 12 and 13 tom I have from the Fullerton era, the metal seems way shinier than the Cleveland and Dayton era Holidays I have. Why is that? The Collets and plates and even hoops all are quite shinier on the Fullertons than the older ones for sure.

My next question would be If I get another kickdrum with Beavertail lugs and a Proper collet mount for the tom holder. What is the correct setup to make the kit as it would have come Originally? I saw a Top Hat setup on Bobby Chiasson's drumfarm site and it seemed different than other double swivo holders I have seen on ebay and stuff.

Last question is on value which is hit or miss based on originality, condition etc. Are the Fullerton era kits much different in value than Dayton or Cleveland? I already know lots of value is found in wood dyna snares but still feeling out prices on the diff era kits.

Guess that is it for now. Thanks

[the_drum_dad]

No offense but you are really speaking of something that sounds like you never owned or played any Rogers swivelmatic's, which i have for almost 42 years i have have gigged them drug them across the country in trailers greyhound busses,trains and airplanes and never have i broke a set screw or had a tom or anything collapse while i was playing and i will tell you i hit hard...the only piece of Rogers equipment i ever had a issue with was their foot pedals,never liked them still don't. I use Ludwig speed kings it has nothing to due with nostalgia,it has to due with sound and quality,and toughness...

You tell me what hardware is better today? what a rack? FFS they look stupid i am a drummer not a brick layer on a scafel...it is a useless argument to try and tell a drummer or guitar player that what he likes is crap,but i will put to test anything made by Rogers between 1959 and 1970 against anything you can find today..

BTW i loath suspension systems i hate stuff that moves when i hit it. mine don't and even if they were a brand new company i would like them ..of course this is all my opinion and i mean no offense to anyone we all like what we like .. :)

PS Ploughman great looking set with the swivo harware they look just like clevlands and i would kill to have two of those cymbals stands the swivo internal ones they work great...

Here, here. Great post. Agree whole heartedly with comments re: racks and suspensions systems. These items cannot be considered vintage and take away dramatically from the stance and presence of a vintage kit.

It's like dropping an LT3 into a '69 Camaro and adding 22" spinner rims. You got "something" but nobody would claim it's vintage and nobody really wants to look at it for too long. Give me the original with numbers-matching big block and watch me drool.

[IsaacHeath]

More swiv-o-matic vs. the world white noise:


If you have an old Rogers kit you might as well use the swivo hardware. It looks super cool and it makes the tom tom sound great! I used a rims mount for a while but I am back to using the swivo stuff again. The sound seemed to have less of a crack or something.

If you abuse it, it breaks! If you put some care into it, it probably will last forever. I can only imagine how many people have owned my swivo set before me but it has made it through 30+ years. I can't say that about some of my new hardware.

Isaac

[JWG]

evolution my friends,

I wouldnt take 40 year old hardware on a 5 shows a week tour, because a: its 40 years old, the chances of it finally giving in are much higher, and b: if it did break how would one get a replacement in a day?

the point is, bills point was missed. the vintage hardware was great, the best highest quality stuff available at the time, but compared to what is out there today? unfortunately they are just different things.

to use the car analogy, comparing a 60's corvette and honda civic? apples and oranges, lets compare a 60's corvette and a 09 corvette, hmmm, well now, thats a different story isnt it?

each to their own, but I must say I agree with bill, "good" is a relative thing, speedkings and swiv o matics are great but compared to 9000's and Pro V1's? I know what i would rely on if it was my performance on the line.

[O-Lugs]

Hmmmm...I'm not so sure about modern drum gear being superior. Easily replaceable? yes

I would be somewhat concerned about taking vintage gear out on a road tour of one-nighters. However, I own both modern and vintage gear and it is the modern gear that I would trust LESS on the road than I would my Big R Rogers kit from 1974-5. If my DW9000 pedal breaks down, I wouldn't even know how to begin to fix it. But, when my Atlas h-hat breaks, I can probably jury-rig something that will get me through the gig. The user-serviceability of vintage gear is much higher, in my opinion.

[JWG]

I agree, as is a 60's carburetor, as opposed to an electronically monitored fuel injection system.

Does that mean the aforementioned carburetor would be more suitable than the newer more effecient elctronic system? moreover does that make it a better choice for a long distance trip where reliability is the primary concern. Im sure you see where this is going, I just cannot believe that after 40 years of manufacturing the science of hardware design and construction has not sufficiently evolved into a more reliable, easier tougher and thus better solution.

from an entirely scientific perspective that is

[The Ploughman]

Heres my thought. ...

One buys the top of the line, finest maple kit.......
Each drum on some state of the art isolation system...
Then one buys the EC2 or similar two ply damped heads for said top of the line kit because the single ply ... ambassador coated, clear, or similar single ply heads are "inferior" ..( ya I know its a lot of BS hype)...
And then One generates 35 threads on how to get the sound from Band X's Blah Blah album out of their drums because ONE has the exact same kit as Joey Blah Blah and ONE's drums sound like ESS....
Then ONE asks what everyones drumdial settings are.....

And I dont have that problem with any of my top of the line maple kits that are 40 years old or better. I have great mounts, great drums, great hardware, and ..........SOUND.

[mcjnic]

Clapping Happy2

Well put. Could have said it better myself...just a bit lazy.

Nice one P.Man.

[WANT IM ALL]

Adolf Ludwig Once Said That If Rogers Were Ever Properly
Funded They Would Have Put Him Slingerland And Just About Everyone Else Out Of Business. Pretty Fair Statement Considering
All The Innovations They Brought To Drum Manufacturing.

[JWG]

forgive me mr p, but just so I am clear: essentially in summary what you are saying is that after 40 or so years the art of drum manufacture (from hardware, velums, to the drums themselves) has not improved?

I can see how with a drum this is certainly the case - it is a piece of wood steamed and shaped. but do you really believe that most of the evolution in drum technology is purely a marketing scam designed solely to make musicians part with their money for something that is, in fact, no better than any older equipment they might have?

as an idea - imagine rogers had the same ideaology and instead of investing time and money into making something like the Swiv-o-matic hardware simply accepted that what was and had been were the best and no need for improvement would ever be required?

"Heres my thought. ...

One buys the top of the line, finest maple kit.......
Each drum on some state of the art isolation system...
Then one buys the EC2 or similar two ply damped heads for said top of the line kit because the single ply ... ambassador coated, clear, or similar single ply heads are "inferior" ..( ya I know its a lot of BS hype)...
And then One generates 35 threads on how to get the sound from Band X's Blah Blah album out of their drums because ONE has the exact same kit as Joey Blah Blah and ONE's drums sound like ESS....
Then ONE asks what everyones drumdial settings are.....

And I dont have that problem with any of my top of the line maple kits that are 40 years old or better. I have great mounts, great drums, great hardware, and ..........SOUND"

also you are assuming the buyer of a new kit is simple in nature and is trying to chase a sound as opposed to create there own.

your 40 year old kits were new once, and there was probably someone sitting around saying exactly the same thing you are

[mcjnic]

Ok. I'm joining the fray.

I've owned and played oodles of "new" kits. Some were nice and others were just targets to hit.

The subject of this thread is hardware, so I will focus on that piece.

Some of the more "nicer" kits I've owned had some of the worst hardware made.

Pearl Masters Mahogany Limited Edition blah blah blah kit had the single worst hardware I've ever used...and I've used a bunch.

It was thick tubes that would not adjust to a nice playing angle. They were large and cumbersome. Yet, that is what they are still touting as the 'best' they offer. The isolation mounts were sub-par. They worked on the premise of rubber mounting around the tension rods. That's kind of stupid when you put it into practice.

DW Masters kit. The hardware was the absolute heaviest hardware I've ever put my grubby paws on. They put sturdy at the top of the list and made the mass of the stand ridiculously excessive. How much structure does it take to hold up a tom that weighs a couple of pounds that is hit with the force of a human? Not THAT much, I can assure you. So, while they are sturdy and reliable, they are definitely not an improvement. The mass of the stand makes them impractical.

Yamaha Recording Custom and a Rock Tour Custom kit. These two had some interesting hardware. The mounts harkened back to the Rogers hex mounts and held just fine. The base of those tom stands, however were another story entirely. They were freekin' heavy and WAY too much to handle a couple of toms.

These are just a couple of high end kits that failed in the hardware department. All of them were either functionally sub-par or way too massive to be considered an improvement.

If mass is an indication of improvement, then how do you explain carbon hardware? There is a fine line (actually is quite wide) between structurally improved and just flat out impractical. I think that is the distinction between our opposing views.

I don't need a shotgun to kill a fly. I can use a .45 just as easily.

[The Ploughman]

Chasing your own sound is one thing. Buying an expensive set of drums and muffling them down to cardboard is an entirely different concept. Theres been much harping on the sturdiness of modern hardware, and sturdy it is. My Ayotte Custom kit has suspension mounts and sounds beautiful. I use DW 9000 series stands with that kit, and have two other sets I use with two different later Rogers kits. And Tama IC pedals. I like sturdy.

Im not against new drums, new hardware... or even advanced technology. Im just saying why waste all that money on quality and technology...then rehead it to get a sound you can get from Pulse?

I have my older vintage kits, and have them headed very similar to factory, and they are always complimented on sound, resonance, and playability, and they work.

[tillerva]

I just picked up a Rogers kit from '74, would be interested in what y'all can tell me about it (of course I'll get pictures up as soon as I can!!!)
Anyway, they are pre-Big R, which was nice I thought. speckled paint interiors, with re-rings. Are these 4 or 5 ply maple, or what? I took them out on a gig and they sounded great. They do have the look of swiss cheese as someone decided to rework some of the hardware on the shells Violin

[mabeknot]

I had a new Rogers kit in 1980, blue, and it had de-lamination problems to the point where the dealer got me a new set. Black this time, and it did the same thing. That's all I know about Rogers.

[mosteller]

boy....people sho do love they rogers

[Mike T]

Indeed they doo indeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!