Polished vs. Patina

[Randydrummer]

I have noticed many posts in regard to polishing off the patina of vintage cymbals. This obviously seems to be a matter of opinion, or personal preference as to the pros and cons of the sound.

I am interested in hearing some opinions on the matter.

For the record I have cymbals that are polished and non-polished. I prefer the sound of a polished cymbal vs. a non. The non polished cymbals sound dull to me... which I suppose might sound great to the next guy.

Also, I as wondering is their any truth to decreasing the value of a vintage cymbal by polishing it? Again, seems to be a matter of opinion.

Any thoughts?

[caddywumpus]

You call it "dull", some call it "mellowed". It's all in the ear of the beholder. I used to love bright cymbals, but I've converted to the dark side...

[BosLover]

As pointed out "dull" is really a matter of opinion. As a jazz player, I don't want bright pingy cymbals. As to loss of value, that's real. If you take a 60 year old Old K, and remove 60 years of patina IT WILL BE WORTH LESS! How much less of course depends on market forces. This is true of any antique, musical instrument or not. When it comes to antiques, the rule of thumb is "when in doubt, don"t clean it"

The fact that you prefer cymbals polished is certainly no crime although I feel just the opposite. However based on your preference I would suggest avoiding the purchase of expensive old cymbals if you plan on cleaning them.

Besides the historical value and aesthetic reasons for not cleaning them, potential buyers of expensive vintage cymbals will be wary because they will not confident HOW you cleaned them. Some chemicals are not good for the metal. And buffing of any kind is a real "no no". When I'm looking for vintage cymbals on eBay, I don't even bother with highly polished ones unless the price is very low AND there is a good sound clip.

[Randydrummer]

Well of the vintage cymbals I have (besides one) they are still dirty and funky. I noticed a small sound difference when I polished one cymbal (60's 22' ride) but nothing that I couldn't live without.

I do disagree with the idea that all antiques should be kept with original funk (patina, paint, etc). Lots of vintage cars for example all have newer or at least polished paint jobs.

Can you imagine purchasing a 57 Chevy that has never been polished or waxed? You would certainly not expect to get the same money as a clean car.

I understand cymbals are WAY different.

Is there any proof that a polished old K would not bring as much money as a non-polished?

I do not want to sound like a opinionated jerk...I would simply like to get facts. I am new to the vintage drum world and would like to be up on the trends.

[mlvibes]

It used to be that a polished old K was as bad as a rewrapped drum, but those days seem to be over...I don't think polishing old cymbals is as big of a "no-no" as it was in the past. I've seen polished old K's sell for extremely high money, and I've seen heavily patina'd old K's fizzle out on ebay.

In terms of sound, in my experience a cleaned cymbal is more "alive" - more bright overtones, washier, louder, longer decay. Elvin always cleaned his cymbals, and he usually played in environments where he could be quite loud and bombastic (he constantly cracked his cymbals).

An old K with a lot of patina is darker, more dry, shorter decay...this appeals to the jazz guys that are going for a dry tone, especially in bop type music where there is a lot going on, and you want the tone to speak quickly and get out of the way. This goes hand-in-hand with Gretsch RB drums...they are dry, the tone speaks quickly, and they get out of the way. Great for a jazz trio gig in a small, subdued and low volume environment.

I notice when people come over to try old K's or A's, drummers that prefer cleaned/polished cymbals generally start playing them loud right away, like DING DINGA DING DINGA DING!!!! Guys that prefer the patina generally start playing them quite softly right off the bat, like they've used to playing in controlled situations such as a restaurant. Not always true, but enough for me to notice.

Thanks,
Bill

[mcjnic]

I prefer the sound of a polished cymbal vs. a non. The non polished cymbals sound dull to me... which I suppose might sound great to the next guy.

That statement is pretty much all there is to this.

You Prefer ...

There's nothing more needed here. All this crap is just that ... fecal matter. If you're ears tell you that it sounds better when it's clean, then by all means clean it. If You Prefer a dirty cymbal, then leave the stank upon it and whack away to disc bliss.

As far as value goes ... there is not a well-connected group of political power-mongering purists who set the value of cymbals. A cymbal will sell for what it will sell for. The buyer will always determine worth and price. That's the nature of the free market.

So, if someone tells you that the value will diminish when you clean a cymbal ... tell them to stick it in their ear and move on to greener pastures.

But, that's just one man's opinion ... mind you, this man is a bit overweight and somewhat inflexible ... but, still only counts as one vote.

[BosLover]

That statement is pretty much all there is to this.

You Prefer ...
So, if someone tells you that the value will diminish when you clean a cymbal ... tell them to stick it in their ear and move on to greener pastures.
.

Not sure if this was aimed at me, but firstly if the original poster likes the sound of clean cymbals, so be it. They're his cymbals after all.

However, with regard to cymbal value, I strongly believe that cleaned cymbals can bring a lower price at auction. Forgetting cars for the moment, most buyers of antiques want the object in original condition. They often prefer to do any repairs/upgrades or cleaning themselves so they know it's been done correctly.

Secondly, most purchasers of vintage cymbals want them "dirty" and keep them "dirty" after purchase. (I put dirty in quotes because I would never consider a good patina as dirt.) This preference can be easily seen by looking at the vintage cymbal market. The overwhelming majority of vintage cymbals for sale are not polished. Many have a patina thats 30 to 70 years old. And I don't include A Zildjians from 1980 on as real vintage cymbals. If sellers of vintage cymbals could get more by polishing them they would. If buyers wanted them polished they would do so after purchase, and as a result we would see many more polished cymbals in the market when they're resold. But... we don't. As a result, the market has spoken.

I might spend $2500 or more on an unpolished 22 Old K, but I'll be darned If I would spend that much on a polished one, especially not knowing how it was polished. I would not want a cymbals at that price cleaned with Brasso. I would not want a cymbal at that price buffed by machine. I would be very wary of such a cymbal as are others potential buyers. Its hard to determine how much the value would go down, but I expect there would be fewer bidders for a polished $3000 cymbal than an unpolished one. And further, the final bid on such an expensive cymbal would likely be lower than it otherwise might.

[mcjnic]

Aimed at you? No. I hit the targets I aim at. Why would you think this was directed at you? Are you the head of some evil underground power mongering cymbal collective that exists to maintain the stranglehold on all cymbal values or something?

What an odd thing to say. Why would I attack you? Have you done something that I'm not yet aware?

Where's my cat?


DAMN YOU!!!

[MastroSnare]

I've had my 50's K's since the early 70's and clean them lightly maybe every 5-10 years. I just don't want any green muck to accumulate but I also don't want to remove even the slightest amount of cymbal. So I do it very, very lightly with a known brand cymbal cleaner. Water is your friend when cleaning cymbals.

I've never noticed that much difference (or any) after I cleaned any cymbal, even ones that were dull that ended up shiny, and I've always wondered if it's psychological (shiny=brighter?), although it's logical enough - if you put masking tape on a cymbal it will make it duller, thus the grime should muffle it too. I just never noticed it.

My favorite K looked like there are barely any grooves on the top side from the time I bought it in the 70's. I guess it sounded so good that the guy before me kept hitting it!

[BosLover]

Aimed at you? No. I hit the targets I aim at. Why would you think this was directed at you? Are you the head of some evil underground power mongering cymbal collective that exists to maintain the stranglehold on all cymbal values or something?

What an odd thing to say. Why would I attack you? Have you done something that I'm not yet aware?

Where's my cat?


DAMN YOU!!!

I assume that's your sense of humor talking. And yes, I am the head of an evil underground power mongering cymbal collective conspiracy to dominate the used cymbal market. I have a few vintage K's at present as well as a dozen or more vintage A's. I'm cornering the market. But how did you know? What gave me away?

[mcjnic]

I assume that's your sense of humor talking. And yes, I am the head of an evil underground power mongering cymbal collective conspiracy to dominate the used cymbal market. I have a few vintage K's at present as well as a dozen or more vintage A's. I'm cornering the market. But how did you know? What gave me away?

My foe. He speaks yet again.

Your signature gave you away. We picked up on it quite a while back and have been monitoring your little covey of corruptness ever since.

BosLover
mark

You are very clever disguising your true identity within the letters of your signature.

I merely rearranged the letters and came up with THIS>>> braslov morek

You didn't count on the fact that I am fluent in Hayastani, the Armenian dialect of all cymbalsmiths.

braslov morek - roughly translates to "bronze muscle".

It is only a matter of time and you and your kind will be "controlled" yet again.

tick
tock

tick
tock

...

[BosLover]

My foe. He speaks yet again.

Your signature gave you away. We picked up on it quite a while back and have been monitoring your little covey of corruptness ever since.

BosLover
mark

You are very clever disguising your true identity within the letters of your signature.

I merely rearranged the letters and came up with THIS>>> braslov morek

You didn't count on the fact that I am fluent in Hayastani, the Armenian dialect of all cymbalsmiths.

braslov morek - roughly translates to "bronze muscle".

It is only a matter of time and you and your kind will be "controlled" yet again.

tick
tock

tick
tock

...

Foiled again! I'll have to try a different approach with a new identity as Brasso-man, cleaner of old cymbals. I could have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you meddling kids!

[jonnistix]

I prefer symballs that sound gooder, clean or dirty-ish. Or is that cimbols...or simbals...xymbels...Hmmmm........tamales?

[Jaye]

It used to be that a polished old K was as bad as a rewrapped drum

Neither are evil....

And yes, I am the head of an evil underground power mongering cymbal collective conspiracy to dominate the used cymbal market....

Well....how many underground cymbal cabals are there then ? Because yours must make number ten (unless we are in the same one and we just don't know it).


But seriously....I would tend to agree that for old K's...no, it doesn't matter anymore whether they have been cleaned or not. The ONLY thing I can think of there would be if the cleaning took off the signature....THEN, maybe, there'd be a very mild price drop.

I think that with pretty much any other cymbal, it really isn't gonna have an effect on price.

I have had potential buyers try that line on me in the instances where the cymbal I was selling had had some of its patina removed. And I just won't bite on that. The retort is quite simple: "keep it around for a while, and it'll develop the patina again".

(Now when we say polishing and cleaning...we are talking about actually removing patina...not just using soap and water to clean off grime and fingerprints and stickmarks and such. Because you CAN clean a cymbal and leave the patina).

The thing about patina is....it is not just a process of the cymbal surface being 'dirty'. It's not like the 'original' cymbal is trapped under this 'crust' of patina and grime and therefore the 'real' sound has been trapped inside.

Drumaholic can explain this better than I...but patina and age actually causes changes at the molecular (or is it atomic ?) level of the metal. So, even if you take the patina off of a 30-year old cymbal...it's still not gonna sound like it did when it was brand-new....because the bronze is not brand-new anymore.

With that said...yes, to a certain extent cleaning the patina off can oftentimes make a cymbal sound 'brighter' and wider in overtones. I agree that there is a general misconception that it is a no-no to clean vintage cymbals. But that has to be asterisked* with:

If you LIKE the way it sounds NOW, don't remove the patina.

If you wanna see if you can 'open' up the sound a bit, you can try removing some or all of the patina.

HOWEVER, this might NOT end up achieving the desired effect, in the end.

[Randydrummer]

Thanks Jaye.

It's nice to hear some real info about the subject. I know that some people prefer the patina sound-wise and for aesthetics, and some people prefer the polished sound and look.

In my house I play 60's cymbals with lots of patina. On gigs I play shiny and lovely sounding Paiste 2002's.

I guess I'm a glass half full kinda guy.

[BosLover]

But seriously....I would tend to agree that for old K's...no, it doesn't matter anymore whether they have been cleaned or not. The ONLY thing I can think of there would be if the cleaning took off the signature....THEN, maybe, there'd be a very mild price drop.

I think that with pretty much any other cymbal, it really isn't gonna have an effect on price.

I have had potential buyers try that line on me in the instances where the cymbal I was selling had had some of its patina removed. And I just won't bite on that. The retort is quite simple: "keep it around for a while, and it'll develop the patina again".

(Now when we say polishing and cleaning...we are talking about actually removing patina...not just using soap and water to clean off grime and fingerprints and stickmarks and such. Because you CAN clean a cymbal and leave the patina).



Respectfully disagree about your statement concerning the value of cleaned old Ks. What's your basis for making that statement since the overwhelming majority of old K's I've seen in person and up for sale have a rich patina. Very few are polished. And the signature I believe IS important. So important that just about every auction for an old K shows a photo of the signature and paper label if available.

With regard to prices for other cymbals being affected I also disagree. Older A's, especially Trans stamps, almost always are up for sale with a dark rich patina. I have seen very few polished ones, again in person or on line. However as it turns out, I happen to own one that does not have a patina. That is due for the most part because the previous, and original owner, had it stored in a cymbal case for most of the last 60 years before his death 3 years ago when his window sold everything off. The inked model and weight "Bop Ride" and "Medium" can still be plainly seen on this early fifties cymbal. Based on my personal observations, the market for vintage cymbals, at least for old Zildjians, seems to overwhelmingly prefer them unpolished.

Second. I have no problem with light cleaning using mild soap and water to remove excess dirt. It's polishing and removing the patina that concerns me.

One of my main reasons for avoiding highly polished expensive vintage cymbals is that a lot of folks out there have no idea what they're doing when they clean cymbals. They use the wrong chemicals or abrasive cleaners or steel wool, or abrasive pads or use buffing devices that can remove metal, or, or.

Who would like to buy a $2500 to 3000 vintage K and find out that the whole cymbal was cleaned and polished using Brasso and a 3M Scotch Brite nylon abrasive pad leaving deep obvious swirl marks and discolorations (probably from the Brasso) all over the cymbal. I saw such a cymbal in person and lost interest immediately. I would not have bought it even if the owner dropped the price by 2/3s. This owner (not a drummer) was trying to clean it up for resale and used Brasso because he thought cymbals were made of brass, and used the Scotch Brite because it cleaned his pots and pans so well! Ha!

There was a recent thread on this site regarding the damage a poster did to his Paiste's as a result of careless cleaning. In that case however, the damage was only cosmetic, but I'll bet the resale value of his cymbals just went down!.

[Randydrummer]

I agree.

Damaging cymbals is a big no-no. I think we can all agree on that.

When I was asking about polishing off the patina I was thinking of course about using a recommended cymbal polish. I know....what if the guy didn't use the right cloth, or cleaner, etc.....not what I had in mind when I started this thread. I'm not talking about the guy who scrubs his old K with steel wool and Comet. I'm talking about civilized drummers who understand the concept of "patina'd" or "dirty" or "mellow" or "aged" cymbals.

I was just trying to get an idea from some vintage loving gentleman about polished or non polished cymbals.

Thanks for the responses.

[BosLover]

I agree.

Damaging cymbals is a big no-no. I think we can all agree on that.

When I was asking about polishing off the patina I was thinking of course about using a recommended cymbal polish. I know....what if the guy didn't use the right cloth, or cleaner, etc.....not what I had in mind when I started this thread. I'm not talking about the guy who scrubs his old K with steel wool and Comet. I'm talking about civilized drummers who understand the concept of "patina'd" or "dirty" or "mellow" or "aged" cymbals.

I was just trying to get an idea from some vintage loving gentleman about polished or non polished cymbals.

Thanks for the responses.

One problem is, (in my experience only, I can't speak for others) that a significant number of people out there, maybe even a majority haven't a clue about how to clean cymbals safely!

I personally know a kid that cleaned his A's with fine grit finishing paper meant for wood furniture. I've seen a couple of machine buffed cymbals that darn near had the lathing ground off. I've seen several cleaned with steel wool or Scotch Brite. After all cymbals are metal and steel wool is intended to clean metal right? If somebody messes up, or scars up, or discolors a $125 used A from 1985, that one thing. Messing up an old K from 1950 worth $3000 is something else again. Since there is no way to know how a shiny Vintage cymbal at auction got that way, many buyers will be wary.

[EricP]

Man, now I'm kind of wary to clean my 'new' vintage Zildjians I just picked up.

The problem for me with dirty cymbals is simple - they leave stick marks on all my clean coated heads! And they dirt up other not so dirty vintage cymbals.

But now I'm getting scared to clean this super dirty one. heh

[BosLover]

Man, now I'm kind of wary to clean my 'new' vintage Zildjians I just picked up.

The problem for me with dirty cymbals is simple - they leave stick marks on all my clean coated heads! And they dirt up other not so dirty vintage cymbals.

But now I'm getting scared to clean this super dirty one. heh

I'm not trying to talk you out of cleaning it if that's what you want. I'm just describing the horror stories I've seen and heard of, and why "cleaned" or "polished" vintage cymbals on the resale market make me wary.

Before you clean it, decide what your goal is. If its just to remove excess dirt and grime, I believe there is info on this site to help you. The same is true if you want a close to new polished look. I'm not an expert on either since I don't usually clean cymbals, although I have used warm water, milld soap and a soft sponge to get the excess grime off of a couple of especially dirty old As. Anything griitty and abrasive ilike softscrub bathroom cleaner is likely to talke off patina.

[lucky]

I used to be one that had to have my cymbals gleaming. My tastes have changed and now all I use is soap and water. At first I thought no way, but it is very affective.

[BosLover]

I used to be one that had to have my cymbals gleaming. My tastes have changed and now all I use is soap and water. At first I thought no way, but it is very affective.

Thats been my experience. I use a mild liquid hand soap and filtered tap water on the few occasions I've cleaned them

[Kona]

I use Dawn Liquid soap and warm water, wipe dry with soft cloth - polish a bit with a soft cloth sometimes.

[mcjnic]

I use Bonami and the back of my cat, when I can catch her.

Seriously, I really don't clean my cymbals unless I pick one up that's dirty funky.

[BosLover]

I use Bonami and the back of my cat, when I can catch her.

I think I saw that tip in the book, "Fifty ways to use a dead cat". Would have tried it but I'm allergic.


Seriously, I really don't clean my cymbals unless I pick one up that's dirty funky.

I don't either except for the same reason. And then its a very mild cleaning!

Only felt the need to do it a few times in my life. And I started playing a very long time ago, with a 15 year hiatus that started when I got married and ended when my son turned 10. I got him his first set for xmas and resumed my playing at the same time. Now he's 21 and majoring in jazz performance, with drums as his main instrument. Didn't see that one coming Mind Blowi

[mcjnic]

Same here. I've been at this for around 45 years and I can count only a few times when I really needed to clean a cymbal. They were purchased or given to me in a seriously funky state. I cleaned 'em up and then beat the hell out of 'em. Fun times. I'm not a polisher but I did a few times foe some very high profile gigs. My boys were looking good for the peepers of the gliteratti. The paiste's I've owned over the years never needed much of anything. I wiped them down with a cloth and put them back in the bag or back on the cymbal tree. Love those paiste's.

[jegellman]

I am by no means a 'player', rather a long-term learning novice on the drums. Then I put together my first vintage kit (70's blue Vista's, complete with a full set of Zildjian hollow logos).

I CAN tell you that (after spending a good 1 1/2 hours scrubbing a ride cymbal) I was thrilled to find out that I (and apparently a whole lot of others) prefer a naturally aged patina, both aesthetically and sonically.

I've never "polished" (not to be confused iwth simply 'cleaned') a vintage cymbal since.

Still, like my brethren of the non-dark side, in order to satisfy my occasional urge to play nice, shiny cymbals, I acquired a SEPARATE set of Paiste Sigs.

So now I can have it either way simply by swapping metal... a solution I highly recommend!

My cat is also immensely relieved.

J.

[BosLover]

I CAN tell you that (after spending a good 1 1/2 hours scrubbing a ride cymbal) I was thrilled to find out that I (and apparently a whole lot of others) prefer a naturally aged patina, both aesthetically and sonically.

I've never "polished" (not to be confused iwth simply 'cleaned') a vintage cymbal since.

My cat is also immensely relieved.

J.

I'm glad for your cat. And while after your experience you seem to prefer not polishing cymbals, retaining the patina was only one of the reasons I prefer to leave vintage cymbals uncleaned (exept perhaps for some light cleaning of really grungy ones.)

I also avoid purchasing highly polished vintage cymbals. As I've stated, the reason is you can never know how the cymbal was cleaned. There is the concern of chemical damage, or the application of too much heat from the friction of an electric buffer, or surface sctratching due to abrasives, or at the extreme the physical removal of metal. But in the end. I also just like the look and sound of a nice patina.

[55WFL]

I play a 55 WFL BRSC WMP set ( imagine that...) all but 1 of my cymbals (9 including dual hi-hats) are 40's and 50's Zildjian's. The one is a new 9" Zildjian Zil-Bel. I haven't cleaned any of them because not only do they sound great, but it makes the set look amazing. If they were all cleaned it would take away from the set. I think it's all a matter of your own preference. You're the one who is looking at them and playing them right? who cares what anyone else thinks, they're yours. What was your first reaction polish or patina? Go with your first reaction! Here it is in the nutshell... If I am buying cymbals for one of my vintage kits I will look for untouched cymbals. If I am looking for a specific sounding cymbal, I will listen to how it sounds and then buy the brand new Zildjian, not a polished old one.