The Difference Between A Private Label And A Stencil

[510]

I'm new to this. What is the difference between a "Private Label" drum and a "Stencil" drum?

[Christophonic]

I'll throw a guess into the pool, saying that private label may be a small custom/boutique company and stencil is an import/copy of an established brand.

[510]

I'll throw a guess into the pool, saying that private label may be a small custom/boutique company and stencil is an import/copy of an established brand.

Christophonic - Thanks for you input! The reason I asked the question was that I hadn’t heard of a “Private Label” and my understanding of what a stencil was, is: when drum company1 makes the drums for company2 (maybe even just putting company2’s name on the exact same set that company1 is already selling under it’s own name). Many years ago (currently too, and often from Asia and other countries.) stores and others could have their names/logo put on many items they didn’t produce. Years ago, often there was a kind of “hand shake” promotional “we love having you as a client” type of “perc” kind of musical instrument business relationship between stores and distributors too, and companies would produce special items with the stores name on it. This seems to be the “stencil” most of us have come to know.

The “boutique” company seems to be different in that it produces it’s own product under it’s own name. They are a very small and limited production company.

“Private Label” doesn’t seem to be used very much and the word “private” seems to indicate a more personalized approach.

With how few explanations this question has garnered it appears there is no difference.

[jonnistix]

I would think "Private Label" would be a stencil with one off hardware, like different lugs. The old stencils did this in order to differentiatae themselves, using the same identical shells, but different hardware configurations. Ala Apollo and Majestic. Same general geographic distribution, but different hardware.

[kevins]

I believe that Private Label generally refers to a brand name manufacturer modifying a badge or label to include a drum store or distributor's name or to indicate a special model not normally produced.
Here's a link to a couple of Slingerland Private Labels in the Drum Guide.
Link.................. (http://www.vintagedrumguide.com/slingerland_badges.html)
Nice thing, that Drum Guide......:)

[510]

So I reached outside of our drum enthusiast networks and discovered that “Private Label”, is actually the manufacturing industry’s established official term for what we call “stencils”. Wikipedia has the details on this term and they describe it like we use the term “stencil” here on the forum, go see for yourself. There is actually a Private Label Manufacturer's Association (PLMA). This is big business.

[510]

jonnistix & kevins - Thanks you guys! I thought this was dead in the water! I hadn’t seen those badges, thanks for that!

[kevins]

But for the drum world, I believe that stencil and private label refer to two different things.
Just my thinking on this, and my thinking has taken me to some odd places...DOH

[510]

But for the drum world, I believe that stencil and private label refer to two different things.
Just my thinking on this, and my thinking has taken me to some odd places...DOH

kevins - Thanks, your always cool about trying to get to the bottom of things! Back to my original question then! Please make the distinction.

There seems to be a concern about a stigma the word “stencil” carries here. So let me offer this, originally Jass (Jazz) carried a stigma and now it has a prestige!
Mind Blowi

[kevins]

Stencils weren't really marketed through different companies, is my understanding. Lots of different badges, but sixty different companies weren't set up to market the sixty or so stencil "brands".
In several cases, hardware was copied, or "stenciled" from hardware on established American made drums. There's the stigma factor, I believe.
The actual company that made the drums doesn't appear on the badge.
Most just say made in Japan, along with the "stencil brand" name.
With a Private Label, like the two Slingerland ones in the Drum Guide, the manufacturer, Slingerland , is on the badge, and a model or store name appears on the label as well.
Those drums were available for original purchase at that drum store only.
Like the Lipskin Special Model, made for that drum store, or the Dorn @ Kirschner drum store name appearing on their Private Label.
Now I think the PLMA Associations' definitions of what is a private label product would apply to stencil drums if the stencil era was currently going on, or perhaps even if the PLMA had been around when it was going on, but they didn't arrive until 1982 or so....
But the drum community has already established what a stencil drum is to us.
A blanket term referring to the wave of imported drums in the later sixties and seventies made from lower quality materials (not total crap, but definitely lower quality) than their sometimes copied (stenciled) American made counterparts.

[510]

Stencils weren't really marketed through different companies, is my understanding. Lots of different badges, but sixty different companies weren't set up to market the sixty or so stencil "brands".
In several cases, hardware was copied, or "stenciled" from hardware on established American made drums. There's the stigma factor, I believe.
The actual company that made the drums doesn't appear on the badge.
Most just say made in Japan, along with the "stencil brand" name.
With a Private Label, like the two Slingerland ones in the Drum Guide, the manufacturer, Slingerland , is on the badge, and a model or store name appears on the label as well.
Those drums were available for original purchase at that drum store only.
Like the Lipskin Special Model, made for that drum store, or the Dorn @ Kirschner drum store name appearing on their Private Label.
Now I think the PLMA Associations' definitions of what is a private label product would apply to stencil drums if the stencil era was currently going on, or perhaps even if the PLMA had been around when it was going on, but they didn't arrive until 1982 or so....
But the drum community has already established what a stencil drum is to us.
A blanket term referring to the wave of imported drums in the later sixties and seventies made from lower quality materials (not total crap, but definitely lower quality) than their sometimes copied (stenciled) American made counterparts.

kevins - OK, so a store label manufactured on the drum along side the manufacturer’s name is a “Private Label” and a store label and no manufacturers label is a “Stencil”. Sounds good to me.

This stuff though was here in the USA (and maybe other countries too) long before we started importing inexpensive drums from Japan. Think about Walberg & Auge and then certain stores like Sears and others here in America. I have a feeling that way back a company that had enough money could have “The Privilege” of having a quality American company produce a “stencil” for them to sell. Or if they were a store that sold a lot of product the best drum companies could produce a “Private Label” as a perc for that store’s good reputation.

I do think your distinction does work here in our drum world. No stigma necessary! Thank you for making this clear!
:)

[kevins]

Well, close. I didn't say that a Stencil has a store label without the manufacturers' name on it. All the names on the badges on the stencil drums were just names... not models, not stores, not companies. Just some made up name to put on them. I have a stencil snare with a "KEVIN - Made in Japan" label on it.
See the difference?

[510]

Well, close. I didn't say that a Stencil has a store label without the manufacturers' name on it. All the names on the badges on the stencil drums were just names... not models, not stores, not companies. Just some made up name to put on them. I have a stencil snare with a "KEVIN - Made in Japan" label on it.
See the difference?

Yeah, what I meant too was the company's own brand that someone (often a store) was selling the drums under. I know what you mean, but I think now the Wikipedia definition of “Private Label” does encompass what your saying.

Also after rereading your earlier explanation, I have a feeling that you feel “stencil” means “copy”. If so, I’m under a different impression, and that is that “stencil” has been used in the drum world as like “stenciling” your brand on a drum. Although not a literal stencil. Like when you literally stencil your band name on the road case. The word stencil seems to be used to represent the branding of the drums for your company that doesn’t produce them. You've seen those cardboard stencils for painting and tracing letters on stuff. I think that is where this term has come from.

Sorry my words here may not be working well.
:)

[wayne]

In the world of fashion and sports gear you always hear the term "knock-offs"...Why is it not used in the world of drum gear?...Look at the stands,pedals,throws,...how about cymbals??

[kevins]

Yeah, what I meant too was the company's own brand that someone (often a store) was selling the drums under. I know what you mean, but I think now the Wikipedia definition of “Private Label” does encompass what your saying.

Also after rereading your earlier explanation, I have a feeling that you feel “stencil” means “copy”. If so, I’m under a different impression, and that is that “stencil” has been used in the drum world as like “stenciling” your brand on a drum. Although not a literal stencil. Like when you literally stencil your band name on the road case. The word stencil seems to be used to represent the branding of the drums for your company that doesn’t produce them. You've seen those cardboard stencils for painting and tracing letters on stuff. I think that is where this term has come from.

Sorry my words here may not be working well.
:)
You are traveling a different path of perception than I intended my words to have pointed you toward.
It is beyond my abilities to explain my ideas any clearer than I have.
Sorry that I have failed in the communication of my thoughts to you.
Peace
Kevin

[510]

In the world of fashion and sports gear you always hear the term "knock-offs"...Why is it not used in the world of drum gear?...Look at the stands,pedals,throws,...how about cymbals??

wayne - Thanks for your response! I can see and agree with your point! I think sometimes the term stencil is actually being used or confused with “Knock Off”. I feel a copied set is a knock off, and a stencil set is a branding of a set, whether a copy or not, produced by some manufacturer other than the company that owns the brand.

[510]

You are traveling a different path of perception than I intended my words to have pointed you toward.
It is beyond my abilities to explain my ideas any clearer than I have.
Sorry that I have failed in the communication of my thoughts to you.
Peace
Kevin

kevins - I'm sorry too! I really thought I had it the first time. Maybe when I see folks here use these terms more maybe I'll get a better understanding of the difference. Thanks for trying though.
Clapping Happy2

[tubelugs]

I think sometimes the term stencil is actually being used or confused with “Knock Off”. I feel a copied set is a knock off, and a stencil set is a branding of a set, whether a copy or not, produced by some manufacturer other than the company that owns the brand.

You started this thread stating you didn't know the difference. Not really sure why a day later you're claiming expertise that is counter to the information you've received here.

A stencil is an unlicensed copy, a knock-off, of a brand-name set's hardware. Its true manufacturer is typically not identified, but that alone does not differentiate it. Many honorable companies sell things they don't make, but they buy them from the original manufacturer. That is the difference. Stencil sets emanate from a company that copied another original manufacturer without paying for the privilege.

[Stallwart]

An example of private label would be the Geo Prism, which was in fact a Toyota Corolla, for the most part. Rogers R-360 and 380 drums made by Yamaha would be "private label."

For years I worked for a manufacturer of pre-engineered steel buildings. While we had several brands of our own, we supplied buildings to various companies that sold them under their own trade names. All drawings, peak cap brand name, etc. carried the name of our customer. Sometimes, the customer required certain features or design criteria for their "brand."

I think stencil brand is more on the line of "A" supplier has this product; you want it?--we'll put a sticker with your name on it.

Still, the difference is marginal.

[kevins]

I think stencil brand is more on the line of "A" supplier has this product; you want it?--we'll put a sticker with your name on it.
Still, the difference is marginal.
I don't think that is what happened with the influx of Japanese drums into the American market in the sixties and seventies.
There is a supplier ..... Tama, or Hoshino, or Pearl, but they didn't put stickers with another companies' name on the drums. There weren't any other companies. They didn't exist. They just labeled their own drums with whatever name, be it Majestic, or Tempro or Kevin or whatever. There is no company named Majestic, or Tempro, or Kevin..... it's just a name.

[jonnistix]

I don't think that is what happened with the influx of Japanese drums into the American market in the sixties and seventies.
There is a supplier ..... Tama, or Hoshino, or Pearl, but they didn't put stickers with another companies' name on the drums. There weren't any other companies. They didn't exist. They just labeled their own drums with whatever name, be it Majestic, or Tempro or Kevin or whatever. There is no company named Majestic, or Tempro, or Kevin..... it's just a name.

Well, not quite Kev. You are on the right track, though. These stencils were sold through a network of distributors who ordered from a menu of options. The sales reps all knew what the others were doing and some of them had many different names. The distributors did not use their own names, but in fact created the Kevin, or the Majestic. It is the 10 or so distributors that made up all of these names, and then actually sold them through the network of music stores, often selling many of their own names side by side. Apollo and MAjestic, I really think were from the same distributor. So, yes there were real companies, but not under the name of Majestic. Some were also like Mr. Cooper, who had a network of national re-sellers he sold to, and so these old drums got all around the country. And there are some really good quality ones out there. Most are mediocre to pure crap, but there are some that were made from really nice shells. I have a located just such a set of late 70s, early 80s Pearl that are real maple shells, just like you expect to see in a Sling, Lud Rogers, etc. I am not sure if they are a stenciled set or actual Pearl, but the point was to create a realistic looking set, of either decent or dubious quality. Remamber, where there is a market, there is always a product to fill that market.
I also have found a set of Titans. These are ostensibly new MIC crap, at least that is what we all think of today when we see one. However this set is from the very early days of the a name brand of taye. Good, entry level stuff in and of itself, the Taye. Today's Titans are crap. The set I have located are really nice maple shells, mahogany veneer exterior, higher end hardware, TAMA Omni Mount tom mounts, very nice, heavy duty stuff and a very nice set of drums. I saw one from GP on the bay last week, looked almost identical, except it was GP, and they were very well built, the guy even reached out to the vintage world to ask about them. He did not come here, but I contacted him, it was a WMP with very similar hardware. You see, 6-8 yuears ago, some of todays low end garbage tried to make an end run because of the crapola we were putting out. Look back at that time. what of any consequence was made on shore? Ludwig have anything of value? Gretsch? The only thing going USA was DW. Ludwig and Gretsch were foundering, and they took advantage. Look at the sheer number of today's stencils, all made by the same 4 drum makers in China. I can get those for you. I am a memeber of a trade compnay. I can buy those lowend and midline and have my name stenciled all over them. The point is, it is rebranding, no matter what you call it. And I think I am going to buy both of these kits, if I can get the Pearls down, WAY down, I want thise maple shells. They need a bunch of parts, but it is a 20" bass, a 12, 14, 14, 16. And a mirror chrome snare. The Titans? Almost nice enough to make me drool. See the pix below.

[kevins]

Of course they had to be sold through someone, like Sears selling Telstar drums.
My point being that it keeps being put forth that the names of these drums were, in fact companies, when that is not the case at all.
I've really been trying to stay out of the whole scenario of the specifics, since the original question was a simple one with a simple answer, and now that it's gone beyond my level of knowledge, I've stuck my foot in my mouth somewhat.
So, I'm going to excuse myself from the rest of this one.

[jonnistix]

Naw, no foot in mouth here brother, you had it right, just like a Silvertone and Telstar, Sears. Telstar...Really? I did not know that one. I knew of Telstar, but no idea Sears sold them. What do you think of those Titans? 200-250?

[kevins]

I don't know about a value, but I like that chocolaty looking finish a lot !

[jonnistix]

I don't know about a value, but I like that chocolaty looking finish a lot !

Well, I am going down there this weekend. I have not been on a road trip in way too long, and it is about 2 hours south, so I am going to give myself a birthday present. Another set of drums, this time a newer set. These are actually very good drums. I have seen a great drummer here, pro, using them, in a silver spark set, and he said they were the best unknown drums he has ever played. And he has two sets. One for the road, one in the practice room. He has other stuff, but keeps all locked away. Says there is no need to keep his high end gear out to get trashed or dirty, so he keeps two kits. I think I may have found a bargain. He told me to keep my eye open and if I ever saw a set of these older, early prodution sets to jump on it if I could, so I think since today was my 49th trip around the sun, I will. The guy has listed them twice, and no takers, so in my drum room they shall go. All 5 pcs.
My wife is supportive of my new desire to get back into my music. She is a pianist, fluatist, harmonica, if you can bl....wait, that don't quite sound right. If it is a wind instrument, non reeded, she can get a decent sound out of it. Now if I could do the same from a skinned one....

[MIKEY777]

Well, close. I didn't say that a Stencil has a store label without the manufacturers' name on it. All the names on the badges on the stencil drums were just names... not models, not stores, not companies. Just some made up name to put on them. I have a stencil snare with a "KEVIN - Made in Japan" label on it.
See the difference?
Hey guys.let me jump in here..kevins is right on this..Back in the 1960s when the U.S.A started to inport Stencil sets[[thanks to Mr.Cooper 510 you should read my post about the story of inporting japanase drums]]..These sets were made by Pearl or Tama..Say music store A wanted to buy cheap sets and inport them to sell in the U.S.A..They the music store would come up with a name to used on the sets they were selling say Lyra drums was the name they used.Then say music store "B" wanted to inport sets to sell they would come up with a name they wanted to used say Hy-Lo.. and so on..That's why so many names on inported drums were used about 150 names i know of..The badges would say "made in japan" under the name of the drums or would say "best quality" or "world's supreme quality" along with other's saying like that..Now don't forget that these sets were made by Pearl or Tama but they never used their names on them...This still goes on today used off names on sets made by Pearl...Mikey

[jonnistix]

They (todays' stencilors) are on my list of importers. Mikey, PM sent to you.

[510]

Hey guys.let me jump in here..kevins is right on this..Back in the 1960s when the U.S.A started to inport Stencil sets[[thanks to Mr.Cooper 510 you should read my post about the story of inporting japanase drums]]..These sets were made by Pearl or Tama..Say music store A wanted to buy cheap sets and inport them to sell in the U.S.A..They the music store would come up with a name to used on the sets they were selling say Lyra drums was the name they used.Then say music store "B" wanted to inport sets to sell they would come up with a name they wanted to used say Hy-Lo.. and so on..That's why so many names on inported drums were used about 150 names i know of..The badges would say "made in japan" under the name of the drums or would say "best quality" or "world's supreme quality" along with other's saying like that..Now don't forget that these sets were made by Pearl or Tama but they never used their names on them...This still goes on today used off names on sets made by Pearl...Mikey

I think this is what I was trying to get at in my earlier posts about Company1 and Company2. It seems to me that part of what the difference in my original question was, I wasn't necessarily referring to whole sets exclusively but to individual items too.

I did understand, that here kevins was referring to “copies” and I hadn’t understood that from the beginning of his input. Just when I thought I understood what kevins was explaining he informed me I wasn’t quite right.

I had mentioned Walberg & Auge because years back I understood this old American company made Hi-Hat stands and such for other drum companies and “stenciled” the purchasing companies name on them. I know many years ago companies purchased what I had always considered “stencil” instruments from other music companies. I used Sears as an example (They put their Silvertone brand name on their “stencil” guitars and other musical instruments for instance). To my knowledge Valco, Conn, Kay and other American companies “stenciled” their stuff for Sears in America from before the 1960s. So some of this thinking is what gave me the desire to learn the difference I mentioned in my original question.

For those who wonder how in one day I developed a position on this issue. I already had a knowledge of what “stenciling” was in the music industry (it may be different here in the drum world) and this knowledge was more of an understanding similar if not the same as what MIKEY777 and jonnistix have been describing here. I am now realizing that there are other ways that the term stenciling may be used in the drum world.

I’ve been involved with many people in the band instrument manufacturing and repair industry for many years and this industry has a long history of doing what I have understood to be “stenciling” (see MIKEY777 & jonnistix ) product for other companies. Also, it was very interesting to me to find out that “Private Label” was an official term used for this practice.

Thank you all very much!
:)