Rogers question

[Super B]

I have stumbled onto a Rogers Powertone 3pc drumset with a dynasonic snare (metal), in strata black (looks like a black oyster pearl). The bass drum says it was made at the Fullerton factory. It has the swivelmatic tom arm, beavertail lugs, and I'm told it's from 1970. What kind of line was "Powertone", high end, low end? What kind of wood were used for these shells? The shells have been sprayed grey on the inside. Cool kit, but, I'm not that hip on the Rogers line of drumsets. Any idea on the value of a "powertone" in decent condition? I will get some pictures taken to get an more accurate value of the drumset.

[Tommyp]

Super B...

The "Powertone" line was Rogers top line kit back in Fullerton, 1970. Before the sale of the Rogers Drum Company to CBS, that line/model drum was called the "Holiday" which was also their top of the line model. Besides the model name change from "Holiday" to "Powertone", the shells remained the same with regard to make-up, ( Keller shells in a 5 ply maple/poplar layup ) excluding the fact that they were now being sprayed with the speckled "trunk paint" instead of the flat grey. It is possible to have an early Fullerton badged kit with the flat grey paint, but the majority were the speckled "trunk paint".

The Swivo-Matic tom mounting hardware is correct for this era drum kit.

You say that it is a three piece... What sizes are they? And, that configuration sounds a tad odd for 1970. I'm not sure that a three piece kit was even cataloged then. It may be a four piece that is missing the floor tom. Regardless, they are still Rogers! and the reward is some nice sounding drums. Some pics would help me dial it in closer for you.

You are correct by the way, Black Strata was in fact the Rogers wrap that looked a lot like Ludwig's Black Oyster pearl.

As to value, again, pics will help.

Hope this was of help to you!

Tommyp

[Super B]

Tommyp,
Wow, thanks for the info, I was getting scared. I'm working on the pics, I have to move one kit to set up the other. This drum set has a 13in rack, 16in floor, 22in kick, and a 14in metal dynasonic snare. The 3 wood drums have the grey speckle paint on the inside and the fullerton sticker. The mount on the bassdrum is only for one tom. I have the Rob Cook Rogers book, the Black Strata was offered in 1967, the move to Fullerton was in 1969, and there was a slight mention of the Powertone line, but, it's hard to pinpoint what the hell I have. If this helps, the floor tom leg mount has drum key type lugs, the same on the swivomatic. The kit is sweet, I'm just more confused now, after I purchased the Rogers book, on what I have. When the wife and son go to bed, I will move stuff around, so, I can get some pictures done. Again, thank you for you information, I need help on this one. On a side note, the Rogers book is great, a little sad, due to the fire at a factory, selling to CBS, then going out of buisness, it seems Rogers made a great drum.

[Tommyp]

Hello again Super B...

Well, in reality, you actually have a FOUR PIECE kit as the snare drum is always included in the drum count. Being that the snare drum is the COB Dynasonic, the focus is on the other THREE drums... ( and I figured they would in fact have the speckled trunk paint! ) So, I WILL be able to pin-point what you have!

Now that I know the sizes, let me ask you this: Do you have a Knobby cymbal holder mounted on the bass drum in the typical ride cymbal position? Do you by any chance have an EXTRA Knobby cymbal holder mounted on the bass drum in what would be a splash cymbal location? ( in front of the rack tom ) The reason I ask is this:

The answers will help me dial in the kit that you have... because it COULD be one of three: The Buddy Rich Celebrity, The Buddy Rich Headliner, or the Roy Burns Starlighter. There are subtle differences between all these cataloged kits. Let me know when you get a chance. Also,

While I think Rob Cook did a fabulous job on his book, it isn't perfect... there are certain areas that aren't accurate. It DOES get you close though, and of course the Rogers story in general is fascinating! The Rob Cook book plus other Rogers media/knowledge help date a lot of this stuff. Let me know on the other stuff when you have a moment. Take care!

Tommyp

[Super B]

Hello again Super B...
Now that I know the sizes, let me ask you this: Do you have a Knobby cymbal holder mounted on the bass drum in the typical ride cymbal position? Do you by any chance have an EXTRA Knobby cymbal holder mounted on the bass drum in what would be a splash cymbal location? ( in front of the rack tom ) The reason I ask is this:

The answers will help me dial in the kit that you have... because it COULD be one of three: The Buddy Rich Celebrity, The Buddy Rich Headliner, or the Roy Burns Starlighter. There are subtle differences between all these cataloged kits. Let me know when you get a chance. Also,
Tommyp

First off, Tommy, you the man! I just finished taking pictures, I should be able to upload on friday. Ok, yes, the bass drum has a "knobby" cymbal holder monted on the bass drum. No, there is no extra cymbal holder, only one. The sticker in each drum are like the Cleveland sticker, with the border, but, say Fullerton, Calif, in the lower right corner. I have serial numbers for all the drums if that helps. This has been fun, it's like being a private detective. So many twists and turns, I can't wait to find out what I have...all I know, the drums sound and look great.

[Tommyp]

Hey Super B...

Well, based on the information you have supplied... ( and pics will be great too! ) ... I believe that you have a Rogers Roy Burns Starlighter kit. The main reasons are the way it is set up with regard to hardware, plus the sizes. The other "factor" here is the COB Dynasonic. The BR Headliner kit could be ordered in the same configuration as yours, ( although the idea on the Headliner kit was smaller sizes ) except the snare drum that went with that kit would have been the Powertone... but ... there are of course exceptions. Someone COULD have ordered the Headliner kit WITH a COB Dynasonic in place of the Powertone, but then it would have been a copy of the already existing Roy Burns Stralighter, which the dealer probably already had sitting on the showroom floor. The BR Celebrity model is out due to the missing splash cymbal Knobby. So, after narrowing it all down, I would say that they are The Roy Burns Starlighter's. Nice drums, and top of the line.

Regarding the tags: The fact that they look like the Cleveland/Dayton tags means that your kit is an EARLY Fullerton, as the tag design was eventually changed on the Fullerton manufactured Rogers drums. In my opinion, your drums are the more desirable of the Fullerton Rogers, and we already know how they sound... GREAT!

Looking forward to the pics, and thanks for the kind words as well! Oh, of interest: Rogers continued through the 70's with the Roy Burns Starlighter model, but of course by the late 70's the hardware had changed to Memriloc.

Tommyp

[Super B]

Wow, the story seems to be getting better and better. Ok, here are some pictuers, but, my bad picture taking hinders the true beauty of these drums. The wrap is pretty clean, except on the bass drum rims, and there is some decay on the rims on the toms. Again, thank you Tommy p, you have been great.

[Tommyp]

Hey Super B!

NICE pics... NICE DRUMS! You know what would really set this kit off and complete it? Try and round up the rest of the correct hardware. In this case:

1 Swan Leg floor cymbal stand
1 Swivo-Matic HH stand
1 Rogers snare drum stand ( now called the Sta-Tite ) or the Rogers Giant
1 Swivo-Matic foot pedal
1 "L" arm cymbal holder for the Knobby BD cymbal mount

If you wanted to, this could be done one piece at a time over a period of time, and you would end up with a real nice COMPLETE Rogers RB Starlighter kit that would have a good amount of value as the hardware does add a lot to the final total. Anyway,

Regardless of what you do, or not do, enjoy the drums! It's a very nice kit. Got Rogers?! :-)

Tommyp

[Super B]

Hey Super B!

NICE pics... NICE DRUMS! You know what would really set this kit off and complete it? Try and round up the rest of the correct hardware. In this case:

1 Swan Leg floor cymbal stand
1 Swivo-Matic HH stand
1 Rogers snare drum stand ( now called the Sta-Tite ) or the Rogers Giant
1 Swivo-Matic foot pedal
1 "L" arm cymbal holder for the Knobby BD cymbal mount

If you wanted to, this could be done one piece at a time over a period of time, and you would end up with a real nice COMPLETE Rogers RB Starlighter kit that would have a good amount of value as the hardware does add a lot to the final total. Anyway,

Regardless of what you do, or not do, enjoy the drums! It's a very nice kit. Got Rogers?! :-)
Tommyp

I do have this hardware...hihat stand, tom stand, and 2 cymbal stands. I'm tough on hardware, so, I don't use the Rogers' gear, I do not want to break it. So, you think it's a Starliner? Did the Starliner come without the cymbal holder, 13,16, 22 sizes, in the Powertone line? From the Rogers book, it seems, real close to the Citadel 67-70, but, the sizes listed are 12,14, 20. Again, thanks for the help, I would be so lost.

(on a side note, I have posted some pictures of this Rogers kit, on my myspace page and I'm getting hammered for using the Evans heads. It's pretty funny, because, I'm a remo coated head dude, it was just some clean heads that I had available. Even one of my close buddies ripped on me. Too funny. So, in advanced. I'm cool with Remo)

[Tommyp]

Super B...

I thought you did say that you HAD the "L" arm bass drum mounted Knobby cymbal holder? Upon closer examination, it does appear that your kit DOES NOT have that mount... regardless ... it's not the Citadel because the sizes are all wrong on your kit for it to be a Citadel. I still think that it is the Roy Burns STARLIGHTER... ( not Starliner ) ... which is based on the rest of your kit including sizes. Drums were ordered with/without certain items all the time, but were still specific cataloged models. This may be the case with yours I think.

I gig full time and play ALL Rogers, including hardware. I haven't ever had a failure! Rogers made probably the best hardware during this era... it was certainly copied enough! I doubt that you would break the hardware unless you were a total "basher" and were playing very heavy type material. The choice not to use the Rogers hardware is cool though!... and completely your call.

I'm amused with your being taken to task for playing Evans heads. You can play whatever heads YOU want! Who's to say what you should play or not play... Jeeze! What... just because Rogers drums came with logo heads made for them by Remo, you HAVE to set up the drums with them? That's ridiculous. I really am amused by the pettiness of that Super B! I have two drop dead gorgeous Rogers BR kits, both in WMP, and I play ALL Aquarian Satin Finish Coated heads on both... nobody has ever said a word... because head choice is personal. They're your drums... play whatever heads YOU want!

ENJOY those drums! Got Rogers?! :-)

Tommyp

[The Ploughman]

Nice set. You can never have enough Rogers.

[Super B]

Super B...

I thought you did say that you HAD the "L" arm bass drum mounted Knobby cymbal holder? Upon closer examination, it does appear that your kit DOES NOT have that mount... regardless ... it's not the Citadel because the sizes are all wrong on your kit for it to be a Citadel. I still think that it is the Roy Burns STARLIGHTER... ( not Starliner ) ... which is based on the rest of your kit including sizes. Drums were ordered with/without certain items all the time, but were still specific cataloged models. This may be the case with yours I think.

I gig full time and play ALL Rogers, including hardware. I haven't ever had a failure! Rogers made probably the best hardware during this era... it was certainly copied enough! I doubt that you would break the hardware unless you were a total "basher" and were playing very heavy type material. The choice not to use the Rogers hardware is cool though!... and completely your call.

I'm amused with your being taken to task for playing Evans heads. You can play whatever heads YOU want! Who's to say what you should play or not play... Jeeze! What... just because Rogers drums came with logo heads made for them by Remo, you HAVE to set up the drums with them? That's ridiculous. I really am amused by the pettiness of that Super B! I have two drop dead gorgeous Rogers BR kits, both in WMP, and I play ALL Aquarian Satin Finish Coated heads on both... nobody has ever said a word... because head choice is personal. They're your drums... play whatever heads YOU want!

ENJOY those drums! Got Rogers?! :-)

Tommyp

I'm a mess, I know it's Starlighter, my bad. Yeah, I got a kick out of the Evans bashing, that was a first for me. I will dig out the Rogers hardware and wail away.

[CharlesM]

Hi all,

Tommy/Super, it's my understanding that Rogers always used all-maple Keller shells throughout their prime years, not maple/poplar as Tommy stated. At least, this is what I've read from almost everything written about Rogers shells that I've come across. I'm not sure that Keller was manufacturing anything BUT all-maple shells for drum companies in those years.

Maybe someone else can confirm this?

It's easy enough to tell, though: Next time you have any hardware off, check the cross-section of wood plies. If you see pretty much one tone to the wood color, it's all maple. If there's a whitish ply in there, that would be a poplar ply (or another wood), but I doubt you'll find this. Pretty sure your kit is all-maple.

I have a great '64 BDP Holiday kit myself and it sings.

Charles

[Tommyp]

CharlesM...

You are incorrect on your assessment of Rogers shells. Rogers ALL MAPLE shells were not offered until the XP8 8 ply series of drums in 1979. Up until then, the lay-up was in fact, maple/poplar/maple for three ply, and maple/poplar/maple/poplar/maple for the five ply series of shells. The re-rings ARE in fact, solid maple. I'm not sure where you got your misunderstanding from, but I assure you, the shells ARE NOT solid maple.

The venerable wood Dynasonic snare drum, Rogers top of the line, wasn't even solid maple. That was also in the maple/poplar lay-up. All of this is borne out by looking at a bearing edge next time you change heads. So,

CharlesM: Take a good look at your bearing edges... you WILL SEE that they are plied. Don't let the re-ring fool you.

Your 64 Rogers kit sounds like a beauty... and yes ... they are plied shells too! Got Rogers?! :-)

Tommyp

[CharlesM]

Tommy,

Thanks for the info.

Just to clarify, I was referring to all-maple plied shells, not solid-maple.

Can you tell me what your source is for the information on the ply specifics? Is it Rob Cook's book?

Thanks,
Charles

[The Ploughman]

I remember something about that in the paperwork I got with my 1977 Rogers set, when I bought it in 79 from the original owner. Long since lost. But I knew about the maple poplar maple poplar maple thing back then.

[Tommyp]

Hey CharlesM...

The majority of my "knowledge", comes from years of playing and messing around with Rogers drums. And, I still play professionally, full time, and on what else... Rogers! So,

In this case, my source of information comes from a visual on a Rogers drum shell. For this, I used my '65 WMP Powertone snare drum. The plies are easily seen by looking through the transparent bottom snare head... but as the Ploughman mentioned as well, we all knew that Rogers used a maple/poplar ply lay-up... again, from years of playing/restoring/refurbishing/cleaning, Rogers drums. Now, regarding the Rob Cook Rogers book:

Rob did a FANTASTIC job on the Rogers book... but ... it isn't totally accurate. Please don't misunderstand... I have both editions of the book and love the book, but there are area's that aren't correct. Regardless, I recommend the Rogers book HIGHLY! There is so much information in there, and most of it is dead on. In the case of Rogers shells, Rob has it right. Oh, before I forget,

I KNEW that you didn't mean SOLID MAPLE as in, well, solid maple! I knew you were referring to ALL MAPLE plies, and so was I. I just figured that was a given.

ENJOY your Rogers!

Tommyp

[CharlesM]

Tommy,

Thanks. I stand corrected! Very interesting.

From what I've been reading, Rogers used mostly Jasper shells during the Cleveland era but also some Keller shells at times. Is it accurate to say that the Keller shells were all maple, then? Jasper, on the contrary, apparently always used the maple/poplar construction.

See the link below to the Keller company: They state that they began making shells for Rogers in the '60s and their literature on these "traditional" shells implies that they were all-maple:

http://www.kelleratthecore.com/products.php?SubPage=traditional

I don't have access to my kit right now so I can't take a look at the plies. The interiors (including bearing edges) are all painted the flat gray, though, so I'm not sure I'd be able to get a good look at the plies.

No problem about the "solid maple" thing; that's obviously a *sensitive* phrase in the vintage drum world, so I took your wording literally!

Best,
Charles

[Tommyp]

Hey CharlesM...

Nope... Early Rogers shells, and continuing through the Ohio period, were in fact, maple/poplar/maple... etc. Didn't matter that they were Keller, or Jasper, they were always a maple/poplar lay-up. The XP8 shells were the first ALL MAPLE plied shells that Rogers used... and those were in fact, made by Keller, exclusively. You should be able to SEE the ply lay-up by looking at any Rogers snare drum. Check the bearing edges by looking through the bottom snare head. ( if your bottom head is transparent and not translucent of course! ) Even with the gray painted interiors, the bearing edges should be clean and devoid of paint, allowing you to see the plies. Interestingly,

I have a very good friend who is head of R&D at Keller. I will get the inside skinny on this from him too. Stay tuned! :-)

Tommyp