Paiste Cymbal question and timeline - web site question

[Webmaster]

I don't know if you're familiar with the history/timeline of the Paiste Formula 602 series, but maybe you can help please, or know of a Paiste buff who can?

From what I understand, the Paiste Formula 602 series was produced from 1959-1993. Some cymbals have a "Blue" label, & some have no label at all?
What came first?
Is there any significance to the color labeling?
Is this simply a cosmetic change that took place over the years?
What's the difference if any in sound quality?

And lastly, I ran across a Paiste 22" Formula 602. It has the "Shooting Star" Logo but NO serial number or blue ink label. Is this a "real" Formula 602?

Thanks in advance for your great insight.

[MikeJtone]

David,
Did you ever get any information on this question? I am very curious since I have been looking at and buying a Paiste/Ludwig 602 ride & crash. I wondered what the years & differences were in dating and quality between the engraving that has Paiste / Ludwig in script and 3 stars vs. the one that has Paiste / Ludwig Standard and 1 star. No serial numbers.

[bogus]

uhm.. I have a paiste formula 602 20" ride with no serial or stamps.. I also wonder :)

Its a killer ride!

[the_drum_dad]

Sorry guys...I've been in Europe for a couple of weeks and couldn't respond. Here's what I know...

Formula 602's originally came with only the stamped shooting star/formula 602 and no serial numbers. These cymbals were produced from 1959 to late in the 60's although the end date is unclear. In the mid-60's some the pre-serial cymbals began to also include ink stamps with the size (ie: 18") and type (ie: medium). The labels were usually on the underside of the bell.

In the late 60's through the late-mid 70's Paiste began to add serial numbers to these cymbals as well as black labels. This was known as the black label era. The labeling is in the form of a relatively simple script which says Paiste Formula 602. Size and type were also labeled at 90 degrees clockwise in the same printing direction. Paiste also continued to stamp these cymbals as before.

In the 80's, Paiste went to blue labels which mimic the shooting star stamp. Size and type were labeled as per the black label era. The blue label era were the last form of the Formula 602 cymbals until they were discontinued in 1987.

Formula 602 cymbals are remarkably similar regardless of era and were manufactured with the same methods throughout the series lifetime. This is a testament to the Paiste manufacturing system which produces each and every cymbal to match a master cymbal in sound. Of course, there are collectors who prefer various eras and feel that there are minor sound differences between them but in the end I think its just preference for the look of the cymbal. I have tried cymbals of each era and there is virtually no difference in sound quality. This is great news for collectors because it means that as long as the cymbal is intact and not damaged it is pretty much guaranteed to sound great. My pre-serial collection is a testament to this....not a bad one in the bunch.

Regarding Ludwig/Paiste cymbals, as the result of a marketing agreement these were produced during the 60's for sale with Ludwig drum kits. There are at least two versions the most common of which are:

Ludwig Paiste (3 stars) - These cymbals were made from the same B20 alloy as the Formula 602's in Switzerland. They tend to be thinner cymbals so you must be very careful when looking at purchasing used ones. Thinner cymbals tend to be more susceptible to damage and even small dents and warpage can negatively affect the sound of these cymbals. Condition is everything. Rides tend to be more common in Jazz sizes. Hats are also common. Crashes in good condition are rare.

Ludwig Standard (shooting star) - These cymbals were made from the B20 or the NS12 alloy. NS12 will be more silvery in color and will typically have the "German Made" stamp although this is not 100% true since some of the larger sizes were made in Switzerland also. NS12 cymbals can be great shimmery sounding pies with less dark overtones than B20, but the alloy is soft and the cymbals are easily damaged therefore you absolutely must play and listen to the cymbal before purchasing. I can attest to this as I have a few dogs around. These cymbals may also carry the "Swiss Made" stamp and are usually B20 cymbals if stamped in this way. These cymbals also tend to be thinner than Formula 602's. The same comments apply as for the Ludwig Paiste cymbals re: condition. These cymbals also tend to be more common on the market.

[MikeJtone]

Drum Dad,
This is really great information and I appreciate the follow up. Would the Ludwig Standards or The Ludwig Paistes have a some dating guideline? Such a Cymbal with no ink stamp versus a Cymbal with Black ink stamp?

What would the physical traits of the cymbals made in the 60's under the Ludwig Standard or Ludwig Paiste title have been - such as engraving, logo, stamps?

Thanks a lot for this information, it is really useful to me.

Mike

[the_drum_dad]

Mike:
I'm definitely not an expert on the Ludwig's but I know that they were produced probably for about 5-6 years in the early 60's. They may have been produce in the late 50's as well. With that in mind they were produced in the era where Formula 602's did not have serial numbers and for the most part did not have ink stamps. I have not seen a Ludwig Paiste or Ludwig Standard yet that carried a serial number. I have never seen a Ludwig Paiste with ink stamping, however, I have seen Ludwig Standards with ink stamping. Sometimes a small Paiste logo near the bell and a type (ie: medium) at the 3 o'clock position. I would assume that the ink logos were toward the end of the production run for these cymbals. As far as logo pics....I do have some....let me round them up and I will make another post.

A comment on sound quality/value.....it is my opinion that sound quality and value is ranked as follows....Formula 602 (any label), Ludwig Paiste, Ludwig Standard (Swiss), Ludwig Standard (German) in descending order for equivalent condition cymbals.

Cheers,
Chris

[MikeJtone]

Chris,
So if I understand you correctly, Ludwig/Paiste & Ludwig Standard/Paiste would only likely be 1960's vintage.

I have 2 cymbals one is an 18" crash clearly engraved Ludwig Standard - Paiste Swiss Made (no print whatsoever). First photo shown in previous posting #2.

The other is a 22" ride with Black Ink word PAISTE and red ink MEDIUM, the logo is engraved LUDWIG STANDARD - Paiste ??? Made. Shown in second photo in posting #2 and below in this posting.

There are no serial numbers on either that I can tell.

The pictures are of the 22" ride. The ride really sounds great it has a beautiful shimmer to it...do you think both of these are from the 60's?

Thanks again, Mike

[the_drum_dad]

Mike:
Yes, in my opinion, your cymbals are from the 60's, the ink stamped one being later that the one without ink. That said, I do not know the exact dates from which the Ludwig/Paiste marketing deal started and ended although that would be interesting information.

Here are the three versions of the Formula 602 logo.

Stamped:
http://a809.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/115/m_5c4b2666e5cc946525335d4a528cc888.jpg

Black Label:
http://a548.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/79/m_9d8423999c76579b05d8a773a33ca6f3.jpg

Blue Label:
http://a794.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/117/m_870ea4db6f4ce9d0f9b7a844b8567129.jpg

[the_drum_dad]

Here are the Ludwig Paiste and Ludwig Standard logos....

Ludwig Paiste
http://a851.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/127/m_99b6d543aecf138a204607a78f4cfd6a.jpg

Ludwig Standard - Made in Germany
http://a726.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/80/m_3d795e63ecb38aaba3500f09c91fc7dd.jpg

Ludwig Standard - Swiss Made
http://a28.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/114/m_df751c8e5bd472914ef03ee7c2ce1ff3.jpg

[MikeJtone]

Chris, This is outstanding info for me at least. I really appreciate it too. This 22" ride really has a nice shimmer it is set up with my early 60's Ludwig Galaxy kit which is now pretty much complete! Thanks again Chris for the beautiful pictures and the explanations on the Paiste Formula 602's and the Paiste Ludwig & Ludwig Standard cymbals.
Mike

[goughy]

Cool, thanks for that info too. I have a cymbal book that didn't have some of that info. I have a set of 15" sound edge formula 602 hats from 1969 that has the stamped logo, and some sort of 18" (I believe) ride that is the black print logo. At least, I think it's a ride of some variation. It seems too heavy for a crash.

[the_drum_dad]

F602 15" sound edge hats are extremely desireable and sought after. They were the most expensive hats Paiste made at the time. They are probably worth north of $400 if in excellent condition.

Regarding your comment about the 18". In F602's, Paiste produced an 18" medium ride and later on a flat ride. The other 18" cymbals were classified as thin, medium and heavy....no notation of ride or crash. At that time musicians, especially jazzers, were not so picky about what to call their cymbals. They looked for the best combination of rideability and crashability to fit their playing style, setting and drums - often only one or two cymbals and hats were used. For jazz, one was usually a swish or riveted cymbal along with a crash/ride.

Also, an 18" paper thin was produced. Very, very rare and hard to come by today.

[MikeJtone]

Chris,
I wonder if you could comment on this cymbal that I just bought. I wanted to get a crash and this one was cheap with a Buy it Now price - I also thought that it seemed unique. I have copied the auction info -

You are bidding on a Vintage 16 inch LUDWIG PAISTE CRASH Cymbal. It is stamped MADE IN GERMANY and then directly below that it is stamped CHICAGO. Actually is a nice sounding cymbal. As you can see in the pics it does have a few dings in one spot. Center hole is not key-holed and measures out at approximately 7/16 inch. It is a little on the lighter side of dark sounding. Not trashy sounding at all. From what I have gathered it seems that the Germany made Paiste cymbals were made in the late 30's and early 40's. It has weathered the years well and is still full of life! There are not any cracks that I could find. I did not clean this at all, that would be your choice. Overall I would consider this cymbal to be in very good shape. You are buying it "as is". Nice cymbal!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170131889657&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=007

ANY IDEAS ABOUT THIS ONE?
Thanks alot for all the info too. Mike

[the_drum_dad]

Mike:
Very interesting cymbal Mike. I have not seen one with the CHICAGO stamp before. There are so many variations of the Ludwig cymbals. The Ludwig Paiste series was basically identical to the Paiste "Super" line and it may predate 1960 by a few years. I have a 1958 Paiste catalog with Stambul and Zilko cymbals only although this may represent the Swiss cymbals available at that time. Hard to say for sure.

The German production of cymbals started in approx. 1945 and still continues to this day. The factory was started as the Paiste family left Poland to escape communism at the end of the war.

The Swiss factory was started in 1957. I believe that the higher end cymbals were moved to the Swiss factory at this time. I would venture to guess that your cymbal is probably made between 1955 and 1960. The reason I suggest 1955 as the earliest possible date is because this was the time William F. Ludwig purchased the Ludwig portion of Ludwig & Leedy and merged it with WFL to become the Ludwig Drum Company in Chicago. This might be the origin of the CHICAGO stamp. And I believe the marketing deal with Ludwig was set up after that time.

The marketing deal was ended before 1969 because Ludwig catalogs after that time recommend Formula 602 cymbals - no mention of Ludwig Paistes.

I would be very interested if there is anyone out there who could share definitive details/dates about the Ludwig/Paiste marketing deal(s).

[MikeJtone]

Drum Dad/
This is very cool information and it makes me interested to dig into this more. I really am glad that I bought the cymbal if for nothing else, its history, not to mention that I wanted one.

The logo looks very similar to the first Ludwig Paiste with the 3 stars and the crescent, and it does look older (more handcrafted) than the Ludwig Standard logo made in Germany.

I really appreciate your sharing your insight and knowledge with me/us Chris. I might try to ask around on the details about the Ludwig marketing arrangement and see what I can find out and report back to you.

Thanks again, and again.
Mike

[PHROGGE]

I have actually owned about 10 of the "LUDWIG STANDARD PAISTE"(MADE IN GERMANY,,,,,,AS A MATTER OF FACT PROBABLY 15 YEARS AGO (OR MAYBE LONGER) I WAS HONORED TO HAVE SOME GUY NAMED BILL LUDWIG III AUTOGRAPH A 12 "INCH THAT HANGS ON MY DRUMROOM WALL NEXT TO A ZILDJIAN PERSONALLY AUTOGRAPHED BY AHMAD ZILDJIAN FOR MY SON,,,HIS REMARK.....("DAD I CANT PLAY IT NOW THAT HE SIGNED IT!!!!!)SO IT HANGS IN THAT ROOM AS WELL!!!!!.....I AM SO BLESSED BY SO MANY GIFTS FROM MASTERS SUCH AS THESE AND FEE MY DUTY TO "PLAY IT FORWARD" AND ADVISE ALL MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN THE DRUMMING WORLD TO DO THE SAME,,,,,WITH FEELING.....AS JEFF POCARRO WOULD SAY ,,,,,"IT'S ALL ABOUT THE GROOVE" DIG IT......

[Jbeat]

I found this thread while searching for info on my Ludwig Paiste 22" ride. Thanks for the information.

[Drumaholic]

And now, as far as Paiste in concerned...the rarest of the rare:

http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/elvinscymbals/websize/stambul.jpg

[ivmike]

And now, as far as Paiste in concerned...the rarest of the rare:

http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/elvinscymbals/websize/stambul.jpg

Am I not seeing "Made in Turkey" on that cymbal? If so, then I'm not sure that it could be a Paiste. I know that Paiste used the name "Stambul" for a line of theirs, but the word "Stambul" is a translated variation name for "Istanbul", much like "Cologne" is a translation for "Koln" or "Londres" is a French translation for "London".

Here's an entry from Wikipedia:

Stamboul

Stamboul or Stambul is a variant form of İstanbul. Like Istanbul itself, forms without the initial i- are attested from early on in the Middle Ages, first in Arabic sources of the 10th century and Armenian ones of the 12th. Some early sources also attest to an even shorter form Bulin, based on the Greek word Poli(n) alone without the preceding article.[11] (This latter form lives on in modern Armenian.)

Stamboul was used in Western languages as an equivalent of İstanbul, until the time it was replaced by the official new usage of the Turkish form in the 20th century. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, English-speaking sources often used Constantinople to refer to the metropolis as a whole, but Stamboul to refer to the central parts located on the historic peninsula between the Golden Horn and the Sea of Marmara


Has Paiste confirmed that this is one of their older cymbals? I know that they are very open to that sort of thing if you email them with a photo of the die stamp.

[Drumaholic]

You are correct...that does say "Made in Turkey". So this may or may not actually be from Paiste. But they did make a series called Stambul and according to the Pinksterboer book. But even thouh the "Made in Turkey" would seem to rule Paiste out, several other manufacturers used the name "Constantinople" and/or "Made in Turkey" in their trademarks when in fact they were actually made in Italy or the U.S.

That's a good suggestion though....I'll email paiste and find out for sure.

[Drumaholic]

I think you're right, that's not Paiste's Stambul. This is:

http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/ebay/24_Stambul.jpg

But I sent them the other one just to see what they'd say about it. This unknown one could be some little known Turkish manufacturer, or it might be just another company using the "Made in Turkey" claim falsely.

In any case, 2 trademark from 2 different manufacturers is good for a trademark infringement lawsuit.

[Drumaholic]

Concerning this trademark:

http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/elvinscymbals/websize/stambul.jpg

Hi William,

Thanks for your e-mail. Indeed that cymbal is a Stambul, made by Paiste cymbals from 1932-1965. Congratulations.

If you are on Facebook please join our Fans page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Paiste-Cymbals/57292901652

Take care,

Andrew

So I guess that settles it.

[ivmike]

Concerning this trademark:

http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/elvinscymbals/websize/stambul.jpg



So I guess that settles it.

Very cool - I never would have suspected it was a Paiste (due to the "made in Turkey" stamp).

Another stamp in the Paiste line....

Check out the die-stamp in the 1947 image in this link on the Paiste website (http://www.paiste.com/e/about_timeline.php?menuid=312)


..and did you join the FB site, Bill?

[Drumaholic]

Very cool - I never would have suspected it was a Paiste (due to the "made in Turkey" stamp).

Another stamp in the Paiste line....

Check out the die-stamp in the 1947 image in this link on the Paiste website (http://www.paiste.com/e/about_timeline.php?menuid=312)


..and did you join the FB site, Bill?

Not yet, but I might after this.

This version of the trademark must have been used early on. Back in the old days many drummers refused to by any cymbal that didn't say either "Made in Turkey" or Constantinople on it. So several other manufacturers used these things in their trademarks even though they didn't qualify to do so; including Zildjian. So here's just one more example of this phenomena.

[Drumaholic]

I am a vintage cymbal historian. I recently asked a question concerning this particular version of the Stambul trademark:

http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/elvinscymbals/websize/stambul.jpg

I am aware that in the 1930's and 1940's many drummers were very hesitant to buy cymbals that didn't say "Constantinople" or "Made in Turkey" in their trademark. And so several cymbal companies did so even though their cymbals were not actually made in Turkey. So I'm not at all surprised to see "Made in Turkey" and "Genuine Turkish" in your early version Stambul trademark. But can you confirm for me whether or not these cymbals were in fact actually made in Turkey or not? And if they actually were, who was it that was contracted out to make them there? Thanks very much.


...and then did a 180 degree turn-around with this answer:


Thank you for your e-mail and your interest in Paiste products.

First of all we have to clarify, that the cymbal on your photo
isn't a Paiste Cymbal. It must be from another brand.

But you're right, that in 1930's and 1940's a lot of drummer preferred
to buy cymbals with the trademarks "Constantinople" and "Made in Turkey".

Paiste Stambul cymbals has been produced in Estland (from 1932 to 1941), in Germany (from 1948-1957) and in Switzerland (from 1957-1964). We never made cymbals in Turkey. Please find attached
a photo of an embossing of a Stambul cymbal made in Switzerland.

Best regards

Customer Service
Department
Paiste Switzerland

It took them about twice as long to get around to answering me this time, possibly because it took some more asking around to confirm it.

[ivmike]

...and then did a 180 degree turn-around with this answer:




It took them about twice as long to get around to answering me this time, possibly because it took some more asking around to confirm it.

Your first reply came back from Paiste USA (LA), which is the North American Paiste warehouse. The seond reply came from Notwill Switzerland, which is the actual factory and has access to all of the old die stamps and the history. I'm not surprised that they corrected the error.

For fun, here's a photo of all of the rubber stamps that Paiste used to use:

http://www.dunnett.com/paiste/images/bwstamps.jpg

[Drumaholic]

Cool photo. I just added that one to my archives.

But the mystery about that trademark continues. I've seen several manufacturers use "Constantinople" in their trademarks even though their cymbals weren't actually made in Turkey as I mentioned. But I've never seen a cymbal that said "Made in Turkey" in the trademark without that being true. So I'll have to assume that this is from some unknown Turkish manufacturer until and unless some better information becomes available.

[GiantBeater]

wheres the giant beat stamp??