Are the new maples the same as the old?

[ledzeppelin1989]

I m probably going to be investing in a new ludwig classic maple "bonham" set as they call it, and I am curious, is the shell composition the same as the vintage ones? I would assume that it is since they are supposed to be like reproductions of the old set. I dont want to by it if it isnt going to sound the same/very similar to the old ones, I know it wont sound as good as vintage ones, since its new and all, and drums start to sound better over time as they age(in my opinion) but I think you understand what I mean.

[O-Lugs]

No.

The new shells are completely different than the vintage shells.

The vintage shells (like on the Bonham green sparkle set) were made from Ludwig's famous 3-ply shells. They stopped making those decades ago. The new shells do not sound the same, in my opinion. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but I highly advise against buying any of those so-called "re-issue" kits. It's a marketing scheme.

Alas, nothing can buy the Bonham sound, anyway! :)

[Mike James]

I have to agree.

I've been playing since 1964. When I finally got some (1938-ish) Radio King drums in about 1985, I suddenly knew those were "the" drums I'd been looking for. I quit looking at drum catalogs.

Today, the construction is certainly different. But even if it was the same, the wood changes over time, in a way that I'd call "improving". (I like "old wood" better.) So no new drums will sound like older drums. Whether you consider one to be better than the other just depends on the sound you want to hear.

[wayne]

I agree for the most part what is said here but lets not forget you [we] did not have the head selection available today.It is possible to get closer to the original sound with vintage heads etc,but,as stated,old wood is so sweet!!

[ledzeppelin1989]

Well, I finally got to hear/play one. And I must say, they sound SWEET! They dont sound the same as older ones sure, but they sound as close as I'd need! The 26" bass is intense,its deep/warm/boomy but still under control, and all the toms sound great,and heavy! No muffling at all and they dont have any ringy overtones. Im buying the set as just the bass and toms for 1700, so Its not a bad price, plus I can custom order them, with internal dampners, and even a bass drum ride mount, so they are as close to the originals as possible! At some point ill get a vintage version, but for now, the new one is incredibly badass,I think I actually like the sound better. Cant wait till these drums age!band2

[wayne]

GOOD ATTITUDE!!Cool

[O-Lugs]

Hmmm...Well, this IS a "vintage" drum forum, after all. :)

I guess there is something to be said for the way that new drums are made. There is a certain h o m ogeneous sound to new drums that some people prefer. I think this sound is applicable to the sound of modern, popular music. I think a modern drum kit sounds just great behind Britney Spears or on the Rock Star Supernova or American Idol "modern" sound.

I feel that the gear of today is comparable to the music of today. They are both manufactured in similar ways.

[ledzeppelin1989]

Well, I think ludwig drums are by far better than others. I think that then "modern" sound is created by the people, not the drums themselves. Look at neil pert for instance, his drums are nice and could sound good, but, he makes them sound stupid. Now John Q goodsound can walk by and make those same drums sound badass. I think tuning methods and desired sounds influence it more than anything, if you want to be in a new age lame wannabe rock band, you tune your drums to sound like those that your "idols" use. And, some new bands drummers even use vintage stuff, but they still have that new sound. Look at jack whites montgomery ward guitar! He has a new, really lame sound, but with an old guitar!

[O-Lugs]

Okay. You asked if the new maples were the same as the ones Bonham used. The answer is "No, they are not the same." If you want to get a re-issue kit, then that's great. Enjoy them and play them in good health.

[O-Lugs]

*edit! wrong thread!

[Webmaster]

I have to say sound is so subjective in many cases. We should all be able to pick out bad heads and poorly tuned drums, and a change of heads can really change the sound of any set.

So basically it seams a lot of people are trying to find newly made drums that sound like the vintage counterpart. I think in many cases just sitting behind a vintage set gives a different feeling then behind a new set. The same goes for other instruments and cars.

There is nothing like a 60's muscle car. It can't be duplicated in regards to the feel and over all affect a car like that has.

Drums to me are the same way. I have a 2004 set of Premiers that are so well built and sound amazing, but something draws me into sitting behind my 70's Slingerland and it is a different feeling all together.

If the music dictates a newer sound I would probably use newer drums to achieve that. If the music is from the 60's then I would use the drums for that. To try and get an old set to sound new and a new set to sound old, is it really worth it.

I guess also many people do not have the luxury to have more then one set so with that said I can understand trying to find the best balance between the styles of music you are playing.

In all cases I would probably find a local custom builder that can sit with you and show you the differences and what they can do to find that balance for the music you are playing. So much is available out there, just take your time and ask lots of questions. There are some really amazing builders that know their woods and the sounds they achieve.

Sorry, this is more of a general post and not necessarily for the topic currently being discussed.

Thanks

David

[backbeatmusic]

Yes Sir Exactly!! I fully agree!!

[ledzeppelin1989]

I pretty much realized that trying to emulate someone elses sound is pretty lame anyway. Creating your own sound is far better. For me, the set will for sure fit the type of music I play, our band plays zeppelin, acdc, etc. The new set can easily be tuned to fit, even though its not old. With drums of that size, it will sound ,meaty, loud, and mean. Which is what I need. So it can compete with the ****ing super leads(vintage) that the guitarists use, and the acoutsic bass amp. Trying to tune to bonhams sound in the end isnt really gonna work, because our band isnt like a zeppelin cover band or anything like that, we have our own sound and I should probably tune to fit our sound, not tune to fit zeppelin!

[big daddy]

Also, wouldn't the drums that Bonham used in those great old Zep recordings and concerts have been new or new'ish at that time? Not trying to shoot down the "old wood sounds good" theory, but unless he was using 30 + year old drums, then the sound was technically "new wood". Correct?

Plus most new drums (maybe not the reissue Ludwigs) have newer style bearing edges. That in conjunction with modern heads and shell construction would also contribute to the "modern" sound, I imagine.

Just thinking out loud here...

[Webmaster]

Also, wouldn't the drums that Bonham used in those great old Zep recordings and concerts have been new or new'ish at that time? Not trying to shoot down the "old wood sounds good" theory, but unless he was using 30 + year old drums, then the sound was technically "new wood". Correct?

Plus most new drums (maybe not the reissue Ludwigs) have newer style bearing edges. That in conjunction with modern heads and shell construction would also contribute to the "modern" sound, I imagine.

Just thinking out loud here...

Yes, that does make sense, I'm sure a builder could go into more detail about old growth and new growth wood and what was being used in the 60's and 70's

It is funny, because I have seen so many vintage drums with the worst bearing edges and very inconsistent methods of making them the way they were.

I have an employee whose cousin is in a Beatles band and they copy everything exactly down to the finest detail. That's cool since that is their gig and that is what they do.

I have another friend that loves Pink Floyd and he created an album which he felt would have been the next progression of the Dark Side of The Moon. That is cool also and that is what they do.

I have other friends that just do original stuff with their own sound and other friends that play cover tunes, they are all making music in their own way.

So you are correct ledzeppelin1989 make the music that is best for the music and the band you are in. Your drums at that time are the sound you have and I think with the new Ludwigs you will be happy and the music will be what it is for you and the band for your time together.

What kind of tangent did I just go on...

Violin

David

[O-Lugs]

My understanding of "good wood" in regards to vintage drums is related to how it used to be air-dried and that the slower process involved with air drying the wood meant that the cells would stay intact and be "spongier" and "lighter" "more air-spaces" in structure. When manufacturing started speeding up the drying process by using kilns, the higher temps caused the cells within the wood to explode and thus changed the characteristics of the wood and the sound.

Also, another thing to consider is that the old Ludwig 3-ply shells were laid up in a straight plank, wrap and all, and then steambent into a cylindrical shape and glued so that the wrap was tucked into the joint. I have been told that this bending process created tension in the wood that isn't present in modern shells. Is it good? bad? Who's to say? But, the answer to the original question is that the vintage shells are most definitely different than the new ones that are being used to make "authentic re-issue" kits. In most cases, these re-issue kits only resemble their original counterparts on the surface. Beyond that, though, there are lots of differences.

[big daddy]

It is funny, because I have seen so many vintage drums with the worst bearing edges and very inconsistent methods of making them the way they were.

A great example of this is Kent Drums. I have several and they range from excellent to horrible (bearing edges, that is).

I was going to add that, my low-buck import Cortley drums (70's or early 80's I think) sound more like the drums of old, than the drums of new. Not suggesting that they sound exactly like a specific drum makers drum, but more that mellow/warm vintage tone. They have rounded bearing edges (more like the old days).

New drums, especially the high dollar stuff, sound like cannon's to me, compared to vintage stuff. Sharp bearing edges and dense maple shells must comtribute to that sound... my $0.02 :)

[wayne]

RIGHT!!!!....Sharp edges= attack,round edges=less cutting,more shell sound.I dont understand the fixation with loud,cutting,sharp sounds.

[ledzeppelin1989]

I dont know, they dont really sound like "cannons" per se, but, bonhams drums were kinda like big booming cannons. Listen to his bass drum! The thing just straight kicks you in the face. Same with those floors. He had warm tone, but I'd compare his drums to cannons. He didnt have that studio "warm" tone that certain recorded drums have, and thats what contributed to part of his deal. I think any drums of the sizes that he used are not gonna sound sharp, regardless of the construction. Wen you get into smaller drums, thats where the problems lie, which is why I completely hate small drums.

[big daddy]

Certainly drum size is a factor, as is tuning, muffling (or not muffling), etc... Another thing to remember is that Bonham's sound was also a product of the recording process/environment. Things like recording the drums in a large, stone hallway (in Jimmy Page's castle-like home), use of room mic's to capture the harsh boominess a stone room would produce, etc... Then there's drum treatment as well. I've heard tales that they experimented with lining the inside of Bonham's kick with tin foil (or similar) to get more projection, as well as other "crazy" things to alter the natural sound of the drums.

Finally, take those recorded tracks and use some serious compression in the right places/amounts, and you get a pretty powerful drum sound from any sized kit. Of course, trying this with a Cocktail kit wouldn't produce the same results :)

[backbeatmusic]

I can't resist. I did as Led had suggested and listened to some Bonham recordings. It is my belief that ...... 1.) Those couldn't have been the Vistalites that were recorded. He had to have used another wood set for the recordings. I could be wrong. (I know we aren't talking about a Vistalite reissue kit here. It's just an observation on the recordings) 2.) Is it me, or does anyone else hear effects on the drums ........... especially the bass drum. Kind of like a little reverb/echo and possibly a very slight flanger type effect. If that is the case, then a good sound guy could get you very close to Bonham's sound. I say, whatever kit you choose, it's yours!! Enjoy the set and playing around with it as far as heads and tunings and whatever else you can do to change sounds. I know I do. I prefer the "BOOM" type sound, but again it does have a lot to do with the type of music you play and personal preference. I love the vintage drums just because it gives you a feeling of time travel in a sense. I mean you can sit behind an old set and think..... how'd they ever play with hardware and mounts like this??? ... as it may not be as adjustable as todays mounts are. It's great!!!! It also gives me some ideas on how to come up with a setup all my own. With toms in different places and such. My main kit now has a 22"x20" bass drum. (head size first) Cannon? Absolutely!! I must say, I enjoy reading these posts and the advice people give. I also must say thanks to all of you for the great info in the past and the great info I'm getting today and tomorrow!! Nice choice on the set by the way Led!!